I do think it a broad jump from Ben's post to say "Given that the Abu Ali comment is affected by the possibility of confusion..."

I'm sure Ben translated what he had correctly, but Bonatti is shown as having doubted its correctness. Things do get lost or corrupted in transmission - I have no idea if that's the case here, but I was making the point that there ought to be more than one single reference if this is a principle.

Estebon_Duarte wrote: I don't see Ben's remark as a suspicion of reliability."

You don't know me if you think I don't trust Dr. Dykes.
On the other hand he is one of the very few I consider, because he has a true background and CV to show. We need more like him.

margherita

About the River Phoenix chart on the previous page:

I don't see how a cadent 12th house Venus could be taken seriously as an indicator of profession. The Ld of the ASC (Mars) and the Ld of the MC (Sun) are conjunct in the 10th house. Jupiter is sextile the Sun and importantly conjunct the ASC. It seems like a waste of time to linger over Venus for profession considerations. In hindsight we know him to have been an actor, but I can't see Venus as a strong indication for anyone who didn't know who he was.

The Mercury, Venus, Mars technique seems to be a (weak) secondary factor at best for determining profession and should be a relatively minor consideration ? in my view. In this chart the Venus sextile to the MC looks more significant as a determining factor, but even then it doesn't really jump out and shout.


EDITED TO ADD: The Sun at home in the house it rules ? the 10th. The Sun wants public display and honors and uses the chart native (Mars as ASC Ld.) to achieve it. Maybe acting and celebrity chose him rather than he chose acting and celebrity. Celebrity ? a distinctly modern profession ? chose him via one of the best ways to get it these days: film and television acting. The Sun has its needs, you know . . . and it used combust Mars to fulfill them . Yes, I am saying that the true profession here was celebrity, with acting as merely a means to achieve it. The death at age 23 on a sidewalk in a cloud of drugs may have cinched it ? celebrity assured.

Hi Kirk,

I'd add that Saturn has some signification for actors, though I don't remember if my proper reference is Ptolemy, Rhetorius, or GR. Plus, if I'm adding in my head correctly, the Lot of Spirit is in Aquarius and that lot has signification for profession. I'd agree with you that Venus would not be the thing I'd be looking at for profession, directly at least (it is the domicile ruler of Saturn, however ...)

I'd add that Saturn has some signification for actors, though I don't remember if my proper reference is Ptolemy, Rhetorius, or GR

According to an earlier post, it's your own interpretation of Valens saying that Saturn rules those who have a false appearance (which I don't think is the same thing).
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=41524

I haven't had any experience of using this traditional approach to estimating career myself, but I found Margherita's analysis interesting because it seems to be exactly as Ben Dykes presented and demonstrated the technique during his recent lectures in London. Whereas Margherita refers to ptolemy, I think Ben was explaining the approach as described in his recent Persian translations.

Hi, Kirk

I completely relate to your comments. After seeing some hundreds of charts you start to see that the problem is deep (I personally use a "blind method" so hindsight is not an issue. That really shows that the "mechanical" method simply doesn?t work).

About venus in sextile MC, please see my second post in this thread. I would not be too worry about venus being in the 12th... for a planet to be in aspect to the MC, he will be likely to be in houses with some negative connotation anyway (specially 12th, 8th, 6th), so I think this is like counting the same thing twice.

Maybe this venus in 12th could me understood more easily seeing his love life or the houses that venus ruled.

Somewhere we need to just practice it

Agree. I feel this thread has become the combustion thread all over again. I will blame on mercury retrograde Maybe we need some mystery charts.

Dear Kirk, Deborah, Yuzuru and all

Kirk wrote: The Mercury, Venus, Mars technique seems to be a (weak) secondary factor at best for determining profession and should be a relatively minor consideration ? in my view. In this chart the Venus sextile to the MC looks more significant as a determining factor, but even then it doesn't really jump out and shout.
.

At the moment I still had no possibility to hear Ben Dykes, but I'm happy to hear that what I wrote is in agreement with what he teaches.


I believe that the Mercury, Venus, Mars technique is Ptolemy method, Paul Alexandrinus method, throughout all the Renaissance, Cardano, Giuntini, Lilly. This is Lilly:

http://books.google.it/books?id=JBB8ycv ... &q&f=false

Paulus Alexandrinus explains better than Ptolemy: Mercury, Venus and Mars are the planets of the activities because are the planets of the "swift motion."

Jupiter and Saturn cannot be the significators, can just give add some notes.

Anyway I agree that sometimes the method gives unclear results; but this I told many times in this thread- for me it's a difficult chapter to understand. And River Phoenix is one of the simpler examples I saw, because planets are in the place where they should be, and Venus can be the only significator. It's not always like that.

I study with one of closest friends of Bezza, and sometimes he gives us a "mystery chart" and sometimes some well known figure, so I'm accustomed to both.

margherita

Hi Margherita (and Yuzuru),

I had been considering coming back and pointing out that you did indeed say the technique wasn't always effective. I do think it's a valid technique ? something to throw into the pot with other techniques. But in this particular case Venus just doesn't feel especially indicative. The sextile to the MC surely does say something about the career itself ? its ups and downs, favorable influences, etc. But the way I keep seeing it is that Venus being cadent to the ASC doesn't bring the chart native to that particular career or that career to the native. To me Venus sextile the MC here merely speaks of the circumstances of the career itself ? almost like viewing it as separate and apart from the chart native. But it's very possible I'm just looking at it all wrong.

I also was wondering about Venus and acting. At first I assumed that that was indeed correct, but then doubts started creeping in and Mercury seemed just as possible as one who orates and mimes. Or the Moon as one who changes shape and reflects experience to the public. . .



Gabe,

Saturn? He seems too dense and heavy for the necessary adaptability and flexibility of acting. [There we go! Adaptability and flexibility ? two words that point toward Mercury and the Moon as good (better?) choices as significator of actors.]

You and Yuzuru both mentioned the Lot of Spirit for profession indications. The connection with the Sun does seem like a natural choice. I suppose this means I need to get over my hesitation of using any lots at all ? I seldom even have the PoF displayed on-screen anymore.

But the way I keep seeing it is that Venus being cadent to the ASC doesn't bring the chart native to that particular career or that career to the native. To me Venus sextile the MC here merely speaks of the circumstances of the career itself ? almost like viewing it as separate and apart from the chart native. But it's very possible I'm just looking at it all wrong.

My opinion on this is that is the other way around.... venus to the MC (and no other particular strong influence - ceterus paribus), bring the native to the particular career, and the position of venus by sign and house merely speaks of the circunstances of the career itself, for instance his death by drugs.

I also thought about other possible significations (for instance, there is quotes on the tradition that mercury could be athletes), but if we are going to use these possibles significations, IMHO, we will be even more confused and away from a good delineation. If Mercury can be athletes, Saturn can be actors, etc, hindsight will turn into the only option to see career and vocation.

margherita wrote:

Dione T wrote:Marguerita, why is mars invisible in River's chart?

Mars is very near to the Sun...

Anyway in CieloeTerra they recommend to their students a little free software called PLSV

http://www.alcyone.de/plsv_short_description.html

which stands for PLANETARY, LUNAR, STELLAR VISIBILITY

This is for Mars

Mars makes its heliacal rising on the 17th September.

In CieloeTerra they use it a lot, because heliacal phases are very important, as we are discussing in this thread.

I know now there is another software produced by Rumen Kolev, it's expensive but it looks very nice seeing screenshot.

margherita

Delphic Oracle does this as well and has the advantage of displaying this on the graphic ephemeris like this:

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/help-do5/do2870.html

Hello all,

Deb,

Yes, thank you, now I remember, blinded as I often am by my own brilliance.

I'd like to pick out a sentence out of the Robbins trans. of Tetrabiblos, pg 387., about both Mercury and Venus running the "Quality of Action", to keep harping on my defense of Saturn here.

Ptolemy wrote:For they produce workers in the theater, actors, dealers in slaves, makers of musical instruments, members of the chorus, makers of strings, painters, dancers, weavers, and wax-molders. and again, if Saturn testifies to them, he produces those in the aforesaid callings, as well as dealers in feminine finery.

Kirk,

It's not just all about the flexibility, it's about lying, especially when someone does it so well that they almost seem like they become that part they were portraying.

Margherita (with Yuzuru as backup ),

OK now that you've explained a bit more and I've looked at that chart more, I get why Venus is important, but I think we can make a case at taking Ptolemy's conditions more seriously. The Sun is in Virgo with Mercury in the same sign, about to go retrograde, hence perfecting the aspect and not in danger of bring burned by virtue of being in his own sign. So I think Mercury gets to have some say. And Saturn, well, it's the exalted lord of the sign where Venus resides, as well as the confine lord of the degree of the MC, it also casts rays at the 10th sign, is in a pivot, and will receive an aspect from a retrograde Mercury.

Hello Gabriel,

GR wrote: I'd like to pick out a sentence out of the Robbins trans. of Tetrabiblos, pg 387., about both Mercury and Venus running the "Quality of Action", to keep harping on my defense of Saturn here.

yes, but in "Ptolemy" (see below) Saturn can only add, alone it cannot do any profession. Bezza translates "when Mercury and Venus have the rulership signify the activities coming from the Muses' arts."
Here it's mostly Mercury and Venus, more than Saturn.

Margherita (with Yuzuru as backup ),

OK now that you've explained a bit more and I've looked at that chart more, I get why Venus is important, but I think we can make a case at taking Ptolemy's conditions more seriously.

this is usual problem. A lot of astrology is "Ptolemy" method; we cannot discard so easily because almost everybody read profession like that.

Moreover according Feraboli- the translator of the other version of Italian Ptolemy- this is the standard method in many Greek astrologers. For example this is Vettius Valens:

Hermes in a hexagon with Aphrodite or together with it make those who are born be sagacious, charming, lovers of music, fond of play, jesters; at other times poets, songwriters, singing instructors, actors in mimes, in comedies;


I know I'm little boring but if we want to do Medieval and especially Renaissance astrology- Lilly included- we should always look to Ptolemy.

The Sun is in Virgo with Mercury in the same sign, about to go retrograde, hence perfecting the aspect and not in danger of bring burned by virtue of being in his own sign. So I think Mercury gets to have some say.

For different reasons, I think you are right. Mercury even if invisible, we should consider.

And Saturn, well, it's the exalted lord of the sign where Venus resides, as well as the confine lord of the degree of the MC, it also casts rays at the 10th sign, is in a pivot, and will receive an aspect from a retrograde Mercury.

Feraboli says that Saturn with Venus and Mercury makes earnings from art. She quotes Manethone (I don't know exactly how you call in English).

And Jupiter in the angle - because angles are very important makes the success- she mentions Valens, but now i have not time to find the quote.

margherita