Re:Saturn and Democracy

If Democracy is the rule of common man not just the condition of the populace-then there is a lot going for Saturn as ruler of Democracy.
It is the anti-thesis of the King-Sun and natural ruler of the 11th sign where Sun is in detriment and the natural 11th house which is the Parliament or House of commons.

PD

If Democracy is the rule of common man not just the condition of the populace-then there is a lot going for Saturn as ruler of Democracy.
It is the anti-thesis of the King-Sun and natural ruler of the 11th sign where Sun is in detriment and the natural 11th house which is the Parliament or House of commons.

Your post is giving me a feeling of de ja vue. I seem to remember a very similar discussion between Tom, Kirk and myelf some years back on the traditional forum. Ok I see your point. If we were describing medieval society I might accept this. However, democracy involves the populace much more than older models of government. Power is exchanged by the 'will of the people' rather than by exercise of divine right through inheritence. Democratic institutions did not exist when the vocabulary of traditional astrology was developed. We therefore need to go back to our basic symbolism and take a fresh look. More than any other political system in the past democracy involves the people. That is why the Moon is so important in election charts. Democracy is also characterised by the rule of law and constitutional rights. This links democracy to Jupiter in my opinion. Jupiter finds its joy in the 11th house. Your linking the 11th sign to the 11th house is based on the assumption that sign and house meanings are synonymous. As Deborah Houlding demonstrated so well in her book this is a misunderstanding of modern astrology.

Having said all this I am more concerned with identifying associations for the accidental rather than natural significations. I tend to rely on the former much more than the latter.

Venus rules the 11th house which traditionally represents the Parliament. It is posited in the 8th house and also is the dispositor of the 12th house. Venus is forming an applying square to Jupiter and Uranus. I see real problems ahead for this coalition

You seem to be painting an unremittingly negative picture of events here. I mean Venus forms a close trine to fortuna in the 11th and theres also an applying conj of the moon to mercury to take into account. Of course jupiter applying to Asc would be preferable to seperation, I read this as suggesting that the current bonhomire towards Cameron dwindling after a year or so, nevertheless its still of a beneficial nature.

Its also worth remembering that this is not the chart for the coalition, only the leadership of Cameron.

You seem to be painting an unremittingly negative picture of events here. I mean Venus forms a close trine to fortuna in the 11th and theres also an applying conj of the moon to mercury to take into account. Of course jupiter applying to Asc would be preferable to seperation, I read this as suggesting that the current bonhomire towards Cameron dwindling after a year or so, nevertheless its still of a beneficial nature.

Its also worth remembering that this is not the chart for the coalition, only the leadership of Cameron.

Well as hard as we try I guess we all have our preconceptions. You have already come out as an enthusiastic supporter of this new administration. Might that be affecting your assessment? Its hardly radical to suggest this government has an exceptionally tough time ahead. No British Prime Minister has had a more difficult in tray since WWII.

I wasn't attempting a full delineation. Of course there are some postive indicators. Most governments have a political 'honeymoon' period for a while after taking office. There is a trine to the POF as you point out. Although that is almost separated. The applying conjunction of the Moon to mercury across the sign boundary is interesting. I associate this partly with the forthcoming referendum on voting reform which looks like being in the early new year from the degrees separating the Moon from Mercury. This will be interesting as I believe the Conservatives will be campaigning against it while their coalition partners and the Labour opposition will support it.

I do think you need to be very optimistic not to see real problems indicated in this chart. The fact Jupiter (lord 2) is going to oppose Saturn concerns me particularly. This either indicates the impact of this administration's budget or a financial crisis. Venus is 2nd house ruler from the MC so indicates government finances. I think the applying square of Venus to Jupiter (Lord 2) and the opposition to Saturn shows the dramatic impact on the general population.

As for the relevance of the chart I would suggest its indicative of Cameron's Premiership and that inevitably involves his political allies and opponents.

However, if you want to propose a different chart for the coaltion specifically please suggest one. I did give a time for Cameron announcing the formation of a coalition government. Is that the one you are suggesting or something later when the Liberal Democrat MPs gave their stamp of approval?

Mark

Hi Yuzuru,

Not much time just now but Deb has kindly sent me a quick PM to point out that William Lilly links the English House of Commons to the 11th house. It is on page 56 of Christian Astrology in his description of house meanings.

Any astrologers making such an association would by necessity need to be modern or as in Lilly's case early modern. This was the era when parliamentary democracy started to develop as power shifted from the King to Parliament. This battle probably came to a head sooner in England than anywhere else. Perhaps its not so surprising William Ramesey doesn't mention this as he was a royalist and supporter of the old order.

Mark

MarkC wrote: More than any other political system in the past democracy involves the people. That is why the Moon is so important in election charts. .

People are always very important- especially when there is NO democracy.
Remember the Storming of the Bastille and the Winter Palace, and in Italy Resistenza against Fascism.

Moon for me means something more the democratic system.

margherita

People are always very important- especially when there is NO democracy. Remember the Storming of the Bastille and the Winter Palace, and in Italy Resistenza against Fascism.

Moon for me means something more the democratic system.

Hi Margherita,

Good to hear from you again.

Absolutely. I totally agree. Its just that democracy was the question being discussed here. I just meant that Moon was especially important in modern political astrology because of the regular need for ongoing public approval through the electoral cycle. But your right of course that the Moon reflects the public mood whether the government is a democracy or an autocracy

Mark

Hi, Mark

Any astrologers making such an association would by necessity need to be modern or as in Lilly's case early modern.

I am aware: no sense in looking in Abu Mashar for the ruler of parliament!

But of course the ancients did show us some general rules, and that is the reason I can?t agree with Lilly by face value only. And I have my doubts that even Lilly would use it in this way.

I was going to let the matter pass by, to not throw the thread out of its course, but as you bring the matter to surface again, maybe there is some interest in it, so some quotes may help the matter:

The Eleventh House.

It doth naturally represent Friends and Friendship, Hope, Trust, Confidence, the Praise, or Dispraise of any one; the Fidelity or falsenesse of Friends; as to Kings it personates their Favourites, Councellours, Servants, their Associates or Allyes, their Money, Exchequer or Treasure; in Warre their Ammunition and Souldiery; it represents Courtiers, &c. in a Common?wealth governed by a few of the Nobles and Commons, it personates their assistance in Councell: as in London the tenth House represents the Lord Major; the eleventh the Common-councell; the Ascendant the generality of the Commoners of the said City.

In the first point Lilly is very close to Bonatti (p.111, Ben Dykes transl.): the 11th is the substance of the King, his soldiers, his allies, his ministers, and his tributes.

In the second part Lilly says that it represent "their assistance in councell" and the example are the common-councell of London. I feel this example seems much more like ministers and advisers of the ruler than a Parliament, even in that time. If we understand this quote with this meaning, Lilly would be very close to early tradition, as advisors are clearly 11th house matter.

If we look in his horaries, for instance "CHAP. LXXXV. If his MAJESTY should procure Forces out of Ireland to harme the Parliament?" he seems to give the parliament to the first house ("our guys", "go team"), and the 11th exclusively for the King?s armies.

Even if Lilly did considered Parliament as a 11th house issue, today?s parliament is not an advisor of the King, neither it is one of his resources or allies, or ministers, it is an independent house that is not under the King?s rule, so I am not very keen to use it this way.

I found an old discussion by Steven Birchfield. I can?t publish it here without his permission, but a short quote (relatively speaking) probably will not hurt:

Nonetheless, I have a hard time seeing the congressional body in the 11th also. For one thing, the primary function of the Congress is lawmaking, which in itself is a subject of the 9th house! There are those that make the law and those that judge by that law. Now in all the ancient texts, the 11th was seen as the Kings 'generals', i.e. those that follow out the commands of the 'Commander in chief'. I have been thinking that perhaps the 11th should be seen as the rulers' generals. Now that is not exclusively meant militarily either. For the president has a whole cabinet of 'generals' or 'Secretary's' . Donald Rumsfeld is not a 'general' in the sense he leads battles. But he is the 2nd highest 'executive' of the military in the US. The field generals obey him! He is the presidents 'second' in defence matters. In financial matters the Secretary of the Treasury is his appointed 'general' to handle financial matters of state. Condoleezza is Bush's appointed 'general' when it comes to foreign affairs etc. Now this makes much more sense to me <g>

(Steven Birchfield, in the Interpres Stellarum forum, Sep 21th, 2006)

I would add that, to me, the Supreme Court would be the 9th house and congress would probably be 3rd house: application of the religion (Constitution) into concrete and practical matters.

I was going to let the matter pass by, to not throw the thread out of its course, but as you bring the matter to surface again, maybe there is some interest in it

Hi Yuzuru,

Interesting! I could attempt to research an answer on your point on Lilly's use of political horary but it seems silly when we have one the greatest Lilly experts hosting this website. I think Deb is tied up for a few days but hope she takes up the opportunity to discuss this. I can say that when Lilly describes the 'Commons' and 'Nobles' he seems to be describing the House of Commons and Lords respectively.

In the second part Lilly says that it represent "their assistance in councell" and the example are the common-councell of London. I feel this example seems much more like ministers and advisers of the ruler than a Parliament, even in that time. If we understand this quote with this meaning, Lilly would be very close to early tradition, as advisors are clearly 11th house matter.

Lilly is being quite diplomatic. At the time Lilly was writing Christian Astrology he was perfectly aware the parliament was at war with the monarch over which had the ultimate authority. That is a bit more than just being an adviser dont you think?

The historical origin of the UK Parliament was from the royal council. These were originally just advisers to the King. Following Magna Carta parliament had the power to exercise restraint on the tax raising powers of the monarch. As time progressed the Parliament developed a more and more representative and independent voice. Living during the English Civil War William Lilly lived on the cusp of the great constitutional shift which finally recognised the supremacy of Parliament over the King. However, despite the experiment of an English republic or 'Commonwealth' under Oliver Cromwell Britain emerged as a 'constitutional monarchy'.

Even if Lilly did considered Parliament as a 11th house issue, today?s parliament is not an advisor of the King, neither it is one of his resources or allies, or ministers, it is an independent house that is not under the King?s rule, so I am not very keen to use it this way.

In a strict sense the monarchy are still the head of state in the UK and a Prime Minister is still 'invited' to form a government by the Queen. The British government is still 'Her Majesty's government'. Moreover, the British Prime Minister meets with the Queen on a weekly basis to update her on developments. So in a British context the 11th house is especially appropriate for the House of Commons.

Regarding Steven's point I think there is a big difference between the political systems in the UK and USA. In the UK the survival of a Prime Minister depends on him/her being able to 'command the confidence of the House'. This essentially means the PM needs a majority of the Parliament to support his government programme. Moreover, in the UK the PM is selected from the House of Commons. The USA is fundamentally different as the executive and legislature are separately elected. In the USA its not uncommon for the House of Representatives or Senate to be held by the opposing party. This can certainly make the Presidential term more difficult but is part of the American constitutional idea of a division of powers between executive (President), legislature (Congress), and Judiciary (Supreme Court).

The 11th house association works quite well in a UK setting. Parliament represents the political resources ( 2nd from the 10th) of the PM to lead. A lack of support from parliament would mean s/he would be unable to govern. Indeed I suggest the 11th house association works well for any system with the executive is derived from the parliament. I would agree this is not so axiomatic for a political system like that of the US where the executive does not require the consent of the legislature to remain in power. While I accept Steven's point about the 9th house link to law I would also mention that that Jupiter finds its joy in the 11th and Jupiter has clear links to legal matters. Another point is that the executive can sometimes find their budgets blocked by Pariament. Parliaments are not just about law making (9th house). They are also have a vital role in approving or vetoing the financial plans of the executive. This fits the 11th house as 2nd from the 10th.

Of course the 11th house can be seen to have several associations not just the Parliament. It could therefore be seen to represent the armed services, civil service, 'special advisers' , allies, and government budgets. Prior to a democratic era the army were often the way the King retained their power or were overturned in a rebellion. There is an argument this role has been taken over by Parliament in a modern liberal democracy like Britain. Looking around the world there are many other countries that conform more to the UK parliamentary style of democracy rather than the US model. I would personally still support the 11th house for countries with a constitutional monarchy like Britain but would consider a different approach for republican states with elected Presidents like the USA , France or Brazil. So rather than adopting a blanket approach to house significations I suggest taking a careful look at the political culture of each country in question.

I would add that, to me, the Supreme Court would be the 9th house and congress would probably be 3rd house: application of the religion (Constitution) into concrete and practical matters.

I suppose you could also make the point that the Moon has its joy in the 3rd house too.

Mark

margherita wrote:

MarkC wrote: More than any other political system in the past democracy involves the people. That is why the Moon is so important in election charts. .

People are always very important- especially when there is NO democracy.
Remember the Storming of the Bastille and the Winter Palace, and in Italy Resistenza against Fascism.

Moon for me means something more the democratic system.

margherita

I agree. Fortunately the Moon is applying to Mercury by conj and this would indicate that the public are fairly clued up about the difficulties they are about to face. I was watching two Coalition members last night telling an audience that they are about to become the most unpopular Govt this century..this is the actual Govt speaking not the opposition!

Personally I think Mark is over emphasising the detrimental effect Jupiter will have regarding its opposition to Saturn during the coming months but we shall see.

However, if you want to propose a different chart for the coaltion specifically please suggest one. I did give a time for Cameron announcing the formation of a coalition government. Is that the one you are suggesting or something later when the Liberal Democrat MPs gave their stamp of approval?

Thats a difficult one but would probably go with Camerons announcement for now.

Personally I think Mark is over emphasising the detrimental effect Jupiter will have regarding its opposition to Saturn during the coming months but we shall see.

Its not just based on Jupiter -opposing Saturn/conjunct Uranus. Its also the square of Venus to Jupiter. The timing of this is difficult as this chart presumably covers all Cameron's time in power as PM. However, due to the proximity of the Saturn opposition/Uranus conjunction it looks like this bit is quite soon. The Venus square is further ahead I think. The Moon crossing the sign boundary is intriguing though. If its not the planned referendum could it be another general election? If so its looks good for Cameron with the Moon exalted in Taurus. The Moon is the ruler of the 9th house in the chart. That might support the idea of it being legal/constitutional changes receiving popular approval. Its not all gloom and doom of course. There is that sextile of the Sun to Jupiter and the sun trining Saturn. A heavy interest in legal/constitutional (or foreign) affairs affairs judging by Cameron's Ascendant ruler on the 9th house. Plus the Sun is the intercepted 9th house ruler too. Mars (asc ruler) is in a cadent house and out of sect. Equally, the MC ruler mercury is cadent in th 6th house. Probably reflecting the heavy responsibilities facing the government from its beginning.

I am not predicting an apocalypse. I just dont share your rosy view of things ahead. Incidentally, it was Michael Heseltine who acknowledged this government was going to become very unpopular for a while not me! He undoubtably recalls Margaret Thatchers first administration. People forget how deeply unpopular her first government was then after the cuts she introduced. It was only the Falklands war and Labour swinging to the far left that turned things round at the 1983 election. This government are hoping the economy pulls through after 5 years and voters will see things differently after a recovery. Cameron and Clegg are certainly much more subtle communicators than Thatcher. That may help them. In the meantime its going to be a grim period for the UK population facing unemployment, tax rises and benefit cuts. The chart is simply reflecting these inevitable developments and some other problems ahead during Cameron's time as PM.

Thats a difficult one but would probably go with Camerons announcement for now.

Yes so would I. Although I see they sent out a copy of the terms of the coalition agreement everywhere on wednesday morning after the Liberal Democrat MPs had met on Tuesday night.

Mark