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14 by Mark
Thanks Astroart,

Its good to have verification of the time from another source. I have put up the chart below.

Some obvious things in the chart such as the ASC ruler (Mercury) in the 12th. The MC ruler (Saturn) was retrograde and had moved back from its sign of exaltation in Libra back into Virgo. Saturn is in the 6th house by sign division (Placidus). The Moon's next applying aspect is a sextile to Mercury (Lord 1, Lord 2, and Lord 6). The POF is disposited by Mars and saturn is in the term of Mars. Saturn rules both the 8th and 9th houses ( whole sign).

Regarding fixed stars the Pleiades, of the nature of the Moon and Mars, are right on the ascendant degree. These stars have a traditionally violent and tubulent reputation and like all nebulous star clusters are linked to blindness and poor eyesight. Interesting considering the Polish pilot reportedly decided to land in Smolensk in fog against the advice of Russian Air traffic control.
Image
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

15 by Isaac Starkman
After examining the various charts for Poland, I came to the conclusion the best affective chart is for 11 November 1918. Using 35 major events I rectified it to 11.58.40 EET Asc 6CAP03'.
The most important aspects in this chart is rising Mars in opposition to Pluto (Pluto conjunct Desc with orb of 23'!) and Moon 90 MC. Saturn conjunct cusp 8th (topocentric) orb 18'.
Transits for 10 April 2010:
Pluto conjunct Asc 38'
Uranus 135 MC 4'
Neptune 180 VIII 46' & 180 Saturn 31'
Mercury 90 Neptune 2'
SN 0 Jupiter 38'
Saturn 90 Mars 10'
Mars 150 Asc 51'
Converse transits (13 June 1827):
SN 180 MC 26'
Pluto 90 Asc 17'
Saturn 180 Asc 74' & conjunct Pluto 50'
Mercury 60 VIII 15' & 60 Saturn 30'
Mars 180 Mars 16'!
As you can see the converse transits are most powerful transits than the current transits.
Heliocentric Mars conjunct Desc 20' & 90 converse helio Pluto.
In the lunar return Saturn on MC 180 Uranus.
In the tropical converse lunar return, Pluto exactly on Desc, Mars & Saturn on MC.
In the solar return, precession corrected, Mars 180 Pluto on Asc/Desc axis, Neptune on IC, and Moon conjunct Saturn in 10th house 180 Uranus.
Demock Brose claims that the 12th harmonic of solar return is valid cycle. Here, in tropical SR, Pluto exactly on MC.
Primary directions:
Asc 0 SN 10'
Mer 90 SN 5'
Mars 120 Uranus 4'
Secondary:
Moon 180 Mars 4'
Sun regressed conjunct Saturn regressed (21') both 90 radical Sun 5' !!!
Of course other charts, like 1989 chart could also be effective chart. So far I didn't rectify it.

16 by Mark
After examining the various charts for Poland, I came to the conclusion the best affective chart is for 11 November 1918. Using 35 major events I rectified it to 11.58.40 EET
Hello Isaac,

Like most countries there are various national charts proposed for Poland. For example in his Book of World Horoscopes Nicholas Campion suggests the following:

-12.00 noon, 05/11/1916- de jure independence

-11.00am 11/11/1918-de facto independence

- 16.00 28/06/1945 post WWII government of national unity

-13.05 24/08/1989 First Solidarity led coalition government takes power. Beginning of modern democratic Poland.

I am curious why you have rectified the time of the the chart for 11/11/1918 to almost noon? Why not 11.00am when Poland became de facto independent? Is your revised time founded on any historical evidence or it it purely based on astrological logic?

Anyway, lets take a look at your proposed chart. The bi-wheel has your proposed chart in the inner wheel and the the outer chart is for the time of the Presidential plane crash as timed from Warsaw.
Image
I haven't used converse transits. I suppose if it was an easy option on my software I would take a look. Its seems to be used for progressions and solar arcs so why not?

I have no experiece of heliocentric aspects so I cannot comment on this.

I decided to take a look at the Polish chart you proposed in a bi-wheel with Solar arcs too. Wow! Lots and lots of powerful things happening. Not least SA Neptune exactly on the radical MC, SA Moon in partile opposition to the radical Sun, and SA Mars in partile conjunction to the radical POF.

Did you use solar arcs to rectify this version of the 1918 chart?
Image
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

17 by Isaac Starkman
MarkC wrote:
After examining the various charts for Poland, I came to the conclusion the best affective chart is for 11 November 1918. Using 35 major events I rectified it to 11.58.40 EET
Hello Isaac,

Like most countries there are various national charts proposed for Poland. For example in his Book of World Horoscopes Nicholas Campion suggests the following:

-12.00 noon, 05/11/1916- de jure independence

-11.00am 11/11/1918-de facto independence

- 16.00 28/06/1945 post WWII government of national unity

-13.05 24/08/1989 First Solidarity led coalition government takes power. Beginning of modern democratic Poland.

I am curious why you have rectified the time of the the chart for 11/11/1918 to almost noon? Why not 11.00am when Poland became de facto independent? Is your revised time founded on any historical evidence or it it purely based on astrological logic?

Anyway, lets take a look at your proposed chart. The bi-wheel has your proposed chart in the inner wheel and the the outer chart is for the time of the Presidential plane crash as timed from Warsaw.


I haven't used converse transits. I suppose if it was an easy option on my software I would take a look. Its seems to be used for progressions and solar arcs so why not?

I have no experiece of heliocentric aspects so I cannot comment on this.

I decided to take a look at the Polish chart you proposed in a bi-wheel with Solar arcs too. Wow! Lots and lots of powerful things happening. Not least SA Neptune exactly on the radical MC, SA Moon in partile opposition to the radical Sun, and SA Mars in partile conjunction to the radical POF.

Did you use solar arcs to rectify this version of the 1918 chart?

To set the record straight, the noon time for 5 Nov 1916 was used because "in the absence of accurate information". The 11 Nov chart, Nicholas cast it for noon and used EET zone time although it is not clear what the real zone time was, see footnote 1426. He then said that maybe there is a linkage to the armistice that was signed in Paris at 5.00 am and came into effect at 11.00 am GMT ? it could be noon or 1.00 pm in Warsaw.
To my regret I don't have access to any other historical evidence. I hope the a Polish astrologer or someone who knows Polish could enlighten us on this subject.
I rechecked my list of 35 events for 11.00 am GMT Asc 23Cap30' and I think now that it might be very close to the true time.
I used 2 main methods: PSSR and lunar & solar returns.
The solar returns for Nov 2009 are much more appropriate positions:
In the solar return, precession corrected, SN exactly on Asc, Uranus 180 Saturn on MC/IC axis.
In the converse solar return, SN exactly 180 MC.
In the converse solar return, precession corrected, Moon and Saturn on MC and Uranus on IC- sudden change of the head of the state, mourning.
In the quarterly solar return, precession corrected, (4th harmonic) ? very useful and valid returns- Mars exactly on IC
In the converse quarterly solar return, precession corrected, SN on Desc,
I checked also solar returns for the years 1939- 1945 and they are more appropriate comparing to 10.00 GMT. As an example, the SR for the most devastating year 1943/44 Mars & Saturn on IC. For 1944/45 when Poland was at last released for the Germans Moon and Jupiter on IC.
But the best system for verifying the approximate birth time is PSSR.
Here are some examples:
1. 25 July 1932 pact with Soviet Union
Moon 0 Mercury 16'
Moon 60 Uranus 4'
2. 26 Jan 1934 pact with Germany
Moon 120 NN 4'
3. 28 Aug 1958 coal mine disaster
Moon 60 Neptune 0'
4, 21 April 1945 treaty with Soviet Union
Moon 120 Mercury 14'
5. 26 June 1948 treaty with Soviet Union
Moon 120 Jupiter 6'
Moon 0 Venus 28'
6. 5 Sep 1948 Gomulka was forced to resign
Moon 0 Sun 4'
7. 16 April 1943 Katyn massacre was discovered
Moon 180 Pluto 28'
8. 14 Dec 1970 Riots in Gdansk
Moon 120 Mars 10'
Moon 120 Saturn 6'
9. 14 Mar 1980 87 were killed in airplane crash
Moon 0 Sat 8'
10. 2 May 2004 PM Miller resigns
Moon 180 Mars 24'
Re converse mode, especially converse transits.
Quote from The Technique of Prediction by R. C. Davison (1955):
"The Alan Leo textbooks and many who followed along the lines laid by the Leo school have established the idea that not only do the planetary positions on the day after birth bear a relationship to the subsequent events of the life, but also that the planetary positions on the days prior to the day of birth have an equally important bearing upon the life of the native. Many students find it difficult to accept the idea that planetary aspects formed in the heavens on the days before birth should have any influence on the future of the native. It should be remembered, however, that comparatively little is known at the moment of the mysteries of time and of the true significance of "past", "present" and "future"?."
Today, scientists agree that the arrow of time is flowing in two directions.
I recommend you and anyone who still working with program that doesn't offer the converse mode to quickly switch to other program like SF.
There is a freeware program ASTRO (DOS program) by Alexander Marr that not only display the positions of the converse transits but also displays the list of aspects to the radix, sorting by orbs. This is very useful method.
Solar arcs are not in my tools bag. See my article in www.noeltyl.com/tecniques/080531.html
And in my articles in Considerations www.freeconsiderations.com

19 by Mark
I have additionally found out that according to the records from the aircraft, the crash was at 10:41:05.

Hope it helps.

Regards

tvbm
Thanks for that. Quite a a difference from the 10.56am quoted by The Russian emergencies ministry who informed Itar-Tass news agency the plane crashed at 1056 Moscow time (0656 GMT). The Itar-Tass time was used by News agencies across the world.

Is this new time from the Aircraft black box? Could you please provide a source regarding where you got this from? Preferably with a link if possible?

Thanks

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

21 by Mark
Thanks Igor,

Here is the updated chart for the crash time. Although as has been stated before I tend to think the take-off times in such events are probably more important. Still, Neptune and the Moon (ASC ruler) on the MC are very prominent. The malefic nebula Facies is also on the descendant degree near to Pluto. The nebula in the Archer's Face is of the nature of the Sun and Mars, and causes blindness, defective sight (all nebula can cause blindness), sickness, accidents and a violent death. [Vivian Robson, The Fixed Stars and Constellations p.165.].

Its interesting that the pilot tried to land despite repeated warnings from Smolensk ground control not to do so. Some have speculated it was under the Polish President's direct orders but there is no corroboration of that idea from the Black Box recording.

Mark
Image
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

23 by Mark
Hello tvbm,

Thank you.

For the benefit of those of us that do not read Polish could you please translate the key data on the pilot?

In particular his date/place of birth?

Thanks

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

24 by HH
Yes, of course :).

Arkadiusz Protasiuk (the captain of the craft) was born on November 13, 1974 in Siedlce located in Poland.


MarkC wrote:Hello tvbm,

Thank you.

For the benefit of those of us that do not read Polish could you please translate the key data on the pilot?

In particular his date/place of birth?

Thanks

Mark
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