Timing Eclipse Charts?

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One subject I have been pondering lately is the timing of eclipse charts. Traditional astrology suggests we can cast a specific chart for the moment of an eclipse. Indeed this is central to traditional technique as from this a 'Lord of the Eclipse' can be determined.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/eclipserules.html

The question remains though when? Most astrological charts present an eclipse ( Solar or Lunar) at the moment the two bodies share the same or opposing zodiacal longitude. However, an eclipse can take some time for the moment of maximum obscurity to develop. This explains why astronomical data for eclipses often differs from the time displayed on many astrology charts. So which is more astrologically powerful: zodiacal longitude or the time of maximum obscurity in the sky?

I was glad to find this article by Dennis Elwell discussing this very issue.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/kingscross.html

Dennis Elwell is well known in British astrology for his remarkable prediction of the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster based on his delineation of the 1987 eclipse chart and for his stimulating book on the philosophy of astrology 'The Cosmic Loom'.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/shipelwell.html

I have included the relevant section from Dennis Elwell's article and would welcome comments from anyone with any experience of working with eclipse charts.
In my experience calculating the angles for different localities for eclipses is not as helpful as might be supposed. For one thing, to pin configurations down to a minute of time often seems artificial - I mentally allow an orb of time for eclipses, as well as phenomena like solar returns. This disposes of questions like whether the eclipse chart should be drawn for the conjunction of the lights in longitude, or the moment of maximum obscuration.

(It's not commonly realised that there is a strong notional element in some of the times so confidently listed in the ephemeris, as will become clear if you compare the times given for aspects of the major planets in different ephemerides. There is often no 'correct' time: it depends on which formulas the compiler prefers. So it is astronomical nonsense to erect charts for, say, the minute of a conjunction for different capital cities, because such conjunctions cannot be that nicely calculated.)

Rather than rely overmuch on the angles, I favour examining the charts for those entities - organisations, institutions, individuals - which seem pertinent to the inquiry. The eclipse configuration, or the eclipse point itself, may engage some radical chart. Of particular importance are those eclipse aspects which repeat a radical aspect.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Thanks Eddy,

Very helpful. I got this quote from Margherita citing Cardano:
Girolamo Cardano, Comment to the II book of Tetrabiblos, par. 26 (I know that Anglosaxons prefer Seven Segments because Lily quotes it, but that is just a juvenile work):

If it is necessary that the eclipse is seen, so its strength does not depend on the fact that both Lights are exactly on the same line, which is called ecliptic.......In fact Ptolemy judges the magnitude of an eclipse according the extension of the places interested and the intensity of the effects: but in solar eclipses, because of the distance of the aspect, often happens that the Sun is more obscured when the Moon is leaving the ecliptic, and it would be lesser if the Moon would be on the same line. So the strength of the eclipse is in the lacking of light, and not from the proximity of the Moon to the ecliptic, even if I don't deny that this distance too is important for the magnitude of the effect. margherita
Presumably the momemt of maximum obscurity will differ depending on location for a solar eclipse. So this method can only be used when an eclipse is visible in a particular location. It does seem that a lot of traditional astrologers still look at solar eclipses even when they are not visible from a specific location. For example, I have read Steven Birchfield and Yuzuru here state they still give some consideration to eclipses in this way. Lunar eclipses are obviously visible all across the earth. However, I assume the traditional view would only consider them astrologically significant in a night chart with the Moon above the horizon and the Sun below.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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MarkC wrote:
It does seem that a lot of traditional astrologers still look at solar eclipses even when they are not visible from a specific location. For example, I have read Steven Birchfield and Yuzuru here state they still give some consideration to eclipses in this way. Lunar eclipses are obviously visible all across the earth. However, I assume the traditional view would only consider them astrologically significant in a night chart with the Moon above the horizon and the Sun below.
In Ptolemy and the Renaissance astrologers following the "Come back to Ptolemy" manifesto :) it's obviously that the eclipse should be visible because it works because a physical effect, the "influx"...

In every case if we consider even invisible eclipses it's impossible to apply the method, because we could not convert the distance from the Ascendant in time.

Anyway it's true that astrologers used invisible eclipses too, for example Ephastio (pag.52 of Hand translation)

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com