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Firmicus or Maternus

1 by Deb
This seems like a silly question, but I want to check that I am making correct references in an article I am writing. Why is it always my instinct to refer to Firmicus Maternus in abbreviated form as "Firmicus" rather than "Maternus". Most of us do this, but if Maternus is his surname, isn't that the correct one to use? Has anyone considered this before?

Thanks
Deb

2 by handn
Hello

I'm not sure if this is what you mean but if you're referring to the academic citing of references there apparently are different conventions.

e.g.

http://www.bbk.ac.uk/lib/about/learn/citing

https://ilrb.cf.ac.uk/citingreferences/index.html

http://www.ulrls.lon.ac.uk/tutorial/reference/

http://www.bournemouth.ac.uk/library/ci ... g_Refs.pdf

For me it depends on the audience, or what I expect as a reader. If writing/reading something fairly formal I think I'd follow/want an academic convention. If writing/reading something warmer and less 'dry' - something biographical maybe, where I'd want the reader (or myself as the reader) to have a feel for the aliveness (even though he's dead!) of the person being referring to - then I think I'd use/want the first name.

For me at least it can feel very impersonal when just the surname is used, and if I'm reading something that feels academic when I'd rather it felt warmer and more like a dialogue with the person I'd feel a distance there if it's just the surname.

I'm thinking of you saying when you read Christian Astrology it was like Lilly talking to you, teaching you. Would he have been Mr Lilly to you, like a teacher at school/college/uni, or a more personal William? Interesting topic :)

Regards

H.

3 by Mark
Most of us do this, but if Maternus is his surname, isn't that the correct one to use?
Yes its odd I agree. I cant think of any other famous astrologers that are referred to in this way. His full name was Julius Firmicus Maternus so why we normally plump for his middle name defeats me. I wonder if this is just done by English speakers? :???:

I also wonder if it was astrologers that started this or Christian writers? In astrology he is noted for his Matheseos Libri Octo ("Eight Books of Astrology"). However, he is famous in Christian theology for his work The Error of The Pagan Religions

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

4 by handn
sorry I didn't realise Firmicus wasn't his first name..... oops

It's not just English speakers though, I've just checked and there are French references to Firmicus Maternus that are aware of the 'Julius' part but they drop it and still call him 'Firmicus Maternus'
Last edited by handn on Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

5 by Deb
Glad you see the point too Mark.

Hi Handn, its an academic piece for now, but even if it weren't we still wouldn't think of referring to Ptolemy as Claudius, or Manilius as Marcus, and we all talk informally of Valens not Vettius. And for all my familiarity with his work, its still Lilly, never William, not even in casual conversation. I have decided to go with Maternus for the sake of consistency - but it doesn't look (or feel) quite right.

6 by Mark
Its seems its common academic nomenclature to use Firmicus rather than Maternus. :???:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3294116

Certainly, astrologers that have written about him ( David McCann, James Holden etc) also seem to select Firmicus as the shorthand name for him too.

Maybe , its just our prior conditioning that makes Maternus sound odd.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

7 by handn
Well in talk that's obviously for clarity's sake because the surnames are much more distinctive: Claudius versus Ptolemy is no competition, same with William versus Lilly and Marcus versus Manilius. I suspect you could use Vettius or Valens without people becoming confused at all, in fact it might raise a smile to use the first name there.

Then there's the 'Madonna' syndrome where 'Ptolemy' is used like a singular, bold 'brand' name. It's very memorable, though Claudius isn't.

'Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos' has a rhythm and sound that works well whereas 'Claudius' Tetrabiblos' doesn't (Tetrabiblos being easier to pronounce by English speakers than Quadrip-thing). It's like saying 'Saunders and French' or 'Hardy and Laurel'. It's a combination of convention, clarity, and sometimes of ease.

We don't refer to you as Houlding because it would be impersonal when the context is clear, we'd only use your full name for clarity's sake, and your surname on its own in academic citing.

Maybe when you've been gone 2000 years we'll use 'Houlding' all the time? :)
Last edited by handn on Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

8 by Deb
Its seems its common academic nomenclature to use Firmicus rather than Maternus
Yes, that's what most people do - its also what I've always done in the past. I realise it has become conventional but I'm curious as to why that is.
Oh well, if I have to be obstroculous over anything today, this may as well be it ...


Handn, I remember laughing once with another astrologer, that one day someone might refer to me in print as 'Houlding' ... I still have a copy of the first reference to do that :lol:

If anything of mine survived 2000 years I hope they'll know me by my surname rather than my middle name Gloriana

11 by Deb
Love it - Obstroculous - you can call me that when being formal. (Gloriana isn't really my middle name, I made that up because I don't have one and wanted one that bigged me up a bit).

Silly hour is coming to a close so I better get back to proper work. This has made me realise how we all have funny relationships with our names. I remember Sue Toohey once having a crisis because she had been known as 'Sue' to friends, family and colleagues all her life, but on the publication of something important she'd been advised to use Susan, to make herself sound more credible. I thought Sue was fine but in the end she did go with that. Maybe Firmicus is meant to be more 'enduring'. I'll probably change my mind and go back to that under the next lunar transit (call me Infirmicus) - I doubt anyone will show half this much interest in what I'm actually writing about anyway :lol:

12 by handn
I suspected you were writing your own nomenclature there :)

I see now that if Firmicus is definitely his middle name then it is peculiar that Maternus isn't used.

I'm thinking of those people in modern times who have two surnames but they're generally women who've married and use their original surname alongside their husband's surname, but don't use a hyphen between them. They're generally women though. I'm sure there must be modern male examples of this Firmicus/Maternus pattern.

Anyway, looks like FM is having an identity crisis by proxy. Whether he be Firmicus or Maternus or a conglomeration of both, I suspect he'll live on in death for a long time to come :)

Regards

H.

PS Just read that a lunar crater was named in his honour - they called it 'Firmicus' not 'Maternus'..... what was it you were saying about lunar transits? :)

PPS I know it's Wikipedia but the section on Roman naming conventions describes how the 'middle' name was the family/clan name and the third name was only used to distinguish between different people with the same name. So that's presumably why 'Firmicus' is used - it's what we would term his 'surname'. 'Maternus' would be more like a nickname.

Acc. to my Latin dictionary Julius and Firmicus are proper nouns/names whereas Maternus is an adjective, which fits the Wikipedia explanation of how the third names were chosen - i.e. personal characteristics etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_naming_conventions
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