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Day Return Chart?

1 by junaid
Hello everybody,

To all the wise and not so wise (like me),

We have solar return to predict for the year ahead and lunar return to predict for the sidereal month ahead. Do we have something similar for the day ahead?

Thank you in advance!

2 by Mark
Hi Junaid,
We have solar return to predict for the year ahead and lunar return to predict for the sidereal month ahead. Do we have something similar for the day ahead?
By definition a return chart reflects the cycles of the planets. So one can do return charts for any planet. However, none of these cycles is equivalent to a day. The shortest planetary cycle to the Sun available is the therefore the lunar return. However, there is the 24 hours period of the Sun rising and setting and re-rising the next day.

For daily events traditional astrologers would tend to look at the natal chart and return charts and compare these to transits. The Moon is very useful in terms of its daily sign placement and phases too. However, traditional astrology would always tend to focus on the bigger picture. Hence through systems like profections, fidaria or time lords certain transiting planets would be more efficacious or damaging at some periods than others. This is something modern astrology doesn't consider when it looks at transits. Another crucial factor is the 'natal promise' of a planet. In other words is it strongly placed in the chart or a point of potential weakness? Hence the phenomena that so many people have experienced when the dreaded or hoped for transit fails to produce any significant effect.

In modern astrology there is a technique called 'diurnals' that seems to come close to what you are asking for. Here is a description by the American astrologer Celeste Teal:

http://www.moonvalleyastrologer.com/diurnals.htm

I am not aware of anything like this in traditional astrology. However, every time I state something like that here someone digs up a 2000 year old technique..... :shock: :)

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

3 by Ed F
Here are two additional modern techniques for a daily horoscope:

1. Daily solar return to its natal mundane position. You just need to be using a system that supports mundane positions such as Placidus, Regio, Topocentric, Campanus. The idea is to erect a chart for each day for the time at which the Sun has the same ascensional relationship to the horizon as at birth. To me, this is a real "diurnal" chart. The conventional diurnal uses civil time for its determination - what other astrological technique does that?

2. Use the quotidian angles and house cusps when progressing a chart, and compare mundane positions to the natal. In this scheme the RAMC moves ~360 degrees per solar year.

- Ed

4 by junaid
Hello,

Thank you both (Mark and Ed) for the responses!

I have studied the diurnal return charts before - some time ago - but I don't like the idea of simply using durations that does not refer to any motions of heavenly bodies (be them real or symbolic). The "mundane" method that Ed referred to is something I have been explorig, I guess that's the closest to what a day return chart should look like. Did any of the ancients do this? Did they even consider mundane conjunctions i.e. when a planet's position relative to ascendant is repeated?

Thanks again!

6 by Bulletbobb
Whatever the the theoretical arguements may be about the diurnal chart, they do work, and very well. I believe I have all the books written on the subject save one (by Sepharial), and all the authors are agree as to their validity.

I would add two points:
1> There is agreement by all (except Teal) that the diurnal is best calculated for the natal location, and
2> It is necessary to use the converse diurnal in addition to the direct version. Without it you are missing half of the relevant information.

There is another daily technique, the PDH, or progressed daily horoscope. Calculated in exactly the same way as secondary progressions, except 1 day = 1 day. Use the user progressions feature of your software. Converse must also be calculated. The PDH is best done for where you are on the day in question. The PDH does not give the same indications as the diurnal chart. Equally valid, but different.

Regards,

Bob

7 by Ed F
You know, the problem with this kind of discussion is much like one that recently occurred on a headphone aficionado site I visit. There was a thread where a number of people felt that they heard differences between .wav files (uncompressed) and .flac files (lossless compressed). The facts are that the latter when uncompressed provides the same bit pattern as the original .wav.

But a number of prominent and wannabe audiophiles claimed they could hear differences between the two.

I laid out the above facts (being an advanced degree recipient in Computer Science and Computer Engineering). I added the following observation, which I think is the relevant point of this post as it applies to astrological methods:

"As far as differences being heard, I think that falls into the metaphysical relationship of the subjective and objective among sentient beings, and is probably not a conundrum that is solvable in any universal way, even when we become enlightened beings. Pretty Zen, eh?"

After 40 years at this, I have little tolerance for "it works for me, so it works for you too".

And what do you do about DST anyway?

- Ed

8 by Bulletbobb
You leave the birth time unchanged. Change only the date.

All of the sources for diurnals I have seen are agreed as to their validity. I find it difficult to believe that something that works for so many people would not work for everyone. If you have problems with them I suspect it's due to not having a feel for how to work with them. It's like solar returns: many people say they're the best predictive technique there is.
I've never had much experience with them, so I suppose I could say that they don't work for me. I'm sure they would work as well for me as they do for 'everybody' else, if I took the time to learn how to use them.

Regards,

Bob

9 by Ed F
Bulletbobb wrote:You leave the birth time unchanged. Change only the date....
Just for clarification. So, if someone is born at 3:30am EST. When the time changes to EDT in March or April, is the diurnal erected for 3:30am EDT or 3:30 EST? I think I've seen people do both, which is why I'm asking.

Thanks and likewise regards,

- Ed

10 by Bulletbobb
You leave the time as it is given, no matter what. I think the safest way to handle the issue is to express all times as ST, no matter when the person was born. Can't think why that wouldn't work.

Regards,

Bob

11 by Ed F
Bulletbobb wrote:You leave the time as it is given, no matter what. I think the safest way to handle the issue is to express all times as ST, no matter when the person was born. Can't think why that wouldn't work.

Regards,

Bob
Yeah I think that's consistent - use the same standard time every day.

Thanks,

- Ed
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