I have a chart about an astrolger I'm looking at currently. From my reading here, I'd say 9th H should represent someone who gives you an astrolgical service or teaches you about your chart or is an astrologer in general. I should not take the 7th H, correct? Any thoughts?
Thanks.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/Index.pdf

I normally use the 7th house for any sort of "other" person someone is meeting with, unless they are a friend, relative, employee, or boss, etc. Deborah's book, The Houses - Temples of the Sky, says that Astrologers are 7th house in consulting. That book helps a lot for significators (you can also view the index on Amazon.com). In general, an astrologer would be the 9th (subject matter). If you looked at your own natal and wondered if you could be an astrologer, that might be a 9th house focus, whereas if you were to ask a horary on seeking help with an astrologer, you would use the 7th house. I think modern astrologers would likely give it 9th, just as they would give coworkers and physicians the 6th (vs. the 7th again), and to each their own of course.

One problem I run into with the 7th is in legal questions, when you ask about a lawyer helping you in a case. The 7th is already taken by the opposing side. Deb's book says that they are 9th house, so I just use that normally.

Tanit wrote:http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/Index.pdf

I normally use the 7th house for any sort of "other" person someone is meeting with, unless they are a friend, relative, employee, or boss, etc. Deborah's book, The Houses - Temples of the Sky, says that Astrologers are 7th house in consulting. That book helps a lot for significators (you can also view the index on Amazon.com). In general, an astrologer would be the 9th (subject matter). If you looked at your own natal and wondered if you could be an astrologer, that might be a 9th house focus, whereas if you were to ask a horary on seeking help with an astrologer, you would use the 7th house. I think modern astrologers would likely give it 9th, just as they would give coworkers and physicians the 6th (vs. the 7th again), and to each their own of course.

One problem I run into with the 7th is in legal questions, when you ask about a lawyer helping you in a case. The 7th is already taken by the opposing side. Deb's book says that they are 9th house, so I just use that normally.

Sorry for not responding earlier Tanit. I've been travelling.
Thank you for this info. True, I've read modern astrologers using 9th for astrologer - but that would make individuals assigned to different houses depending on their profession and that would be entirely confusing. So I see how right you are. I'll use 7th for the current chart I'm looking at. Thanks you very much.

I am not seeking to disagree with the approach Tanit suggests which sounds eminently sensible. However, just for information it is worth pointing out that in some more ancient sources the 4th house is the house assigned to the astrologer by astrologers in their charts. This is due to the association the 4th house had 'under the earth' to secrets, mysteries and life after death. In fact many of the associations modern astrology gives to the 12th house today were originally part of the 4th or 9th house.

For example here is the 6th century astrologer Rhetorius describing the 4th house:

The fourth house is called the Under-earth and the time of old age. It signifies the topic of parents and property and hidden matters and the house one is born and foundations and the things happening after death. In horary charts or elections it signifies the action of the astrologer to the aspect of the stars. For either Jupiter or Venus will bestow gain and praises or Saturn or Mars losses and condemnations on the astrologer. Rhetorius The Egyptian, Astrological Commendium Containing His Explanation of The Whole Art of Astrology, Translated from the Greek by James H. Holden.

One can make a very strong case for the 9th house too from ancient sources due to its links to divination and prophecy. I just think its interesting that this association with the 4th house to astrology has been largely forgotten today.

Mark

The general traditional principle is that the 7th house signifies the person who treats, counsels or advises the querent directly - so it is used for astrologers and physicians when they are in a consultational relationship with the querent, or treating them for matters of health or emotional guidance, etc. Hence, difficult contacts between the 1st and 7th house rulers can warn of the querent's disatisfaction with the astrologer, or the 7th house and its ruler afflicted could show that the person doesn't get very good treatment/advice from the practitioner. This is the mainstream approach in the 17th century texts.

Then we get astrologers and counsellors generally associated with the 9th house which I explained in my book.

But Mark's point is really interesting, especially because it gives a specific ancient reference to horary astrologers. The gist of it comes very close to what Ptolemy writes about the influence of planets when near the IC:

Evening stations and positions at midheaven beneath the earth .... produce souls noble and wise .? investigators of hidden things and seekers after the unknown. [iii.13]

Putting the two together, its not hard to make a case that Rhetorius was following Ptolemy in describing horary astrologers as 'seekers of mysteries', which requires us to plumb the depths of the unknown. It also makes us 'noble and wise' instead of the usual ancient implications of Chaldean charletanry - so I like it very much !

I should probably include the full passage - from Tetrabiblos, III.13 'Of the Quality of the Soul' (Robbins, p.337):

Evening stations and position at midheaven beneath the earth, and furthermore, in the case of Mercury and Venus, by day evening settings and by night morning settings [basically, when they are visible above the horizon] produce souls noble and wise, but with mediocre memory, not painstaking nor fond of labour, but investigators of hidden things and seekers after the unknown, as for example magicians, adepts in the mysteries, meteorologists, makers of instruments and machines, conjurors, astrologers, philosophers, readers of omens, interpreters of dreams, and the like.

(Ever wondered why we all have such bad short term memories ?? )

Earlier in that passage Ptolemy writes:

the solstitial signs [that's Cancer and Capricorn] produce souls fitted for dealing with the people, fond of turbulence and political activity, glory-seeking, moreover, and attentive to the gods, noble, mobile, inquisitive, inventive, good at conjecture, and fitted for astrology and divination.

(No wonder we are all so opinionated! )

BTW, Mark, can you give the chapter or page reference from Holden's version of Rhetorius please?

Deb

Hello Deb,

BTW, Mark, can you give the chapter or page reference from Holden's version of Rhetorius please?

Yes that was a bit sloppy!

Its Chapter 57-Significations of the Twelve Houses of the Chart
page 67 of the Holden translation.

Mark's point is really interesting, especially because it gives a specific ancient reference to horary astrologers.

Perhaps, or perhaps not! It all depends how you translate Rhetorius.

Its worth pointing out that there is now another translation in English of this chapter from Rhetorius which differs slightly. In particular it renders what Holden translates as 'horary and electional' as simply 'katarchic'. I know Chris Brennan along with Robert Schmidt take the view that katarchic astrology was simply electional or inceptional astrology in the classical era. So whether this is one of the first references to horary or not is debateable.

http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/wik ... lve_Places

At present the above is only a partial translation of this chapter of the work of Rhetorius. Its only providing the summary of the meaning of each house given by Rhetorius. It doesn't go into the full delineation of planets, lots, and nodes in the houses, set out by Rhetorius, which Holden provides in his translation.

The Fourth Place:

The fourth place is called the pivot below the Earth and is of the elder stage of life. It signifies matters concerning family and concerning land and secret affairs and the house in which one was born and concerning foundations and after death. Upon the katarchic, it signifies the business of the astrologer in accordance with the observation of the stars; when Venus and Jupiter are present they supply gain and profit and Saturn and Mars give losses to the astrologer.

No perhaps about it - Holden's translation is of interest because it gives a specific reference to horary astrologers. It really does - whether the original text intended that obviously needs checking. Either way, both Rhetorius and Ptolemy relate the 4th house to astrological scrutiny of mysteries which is what I find most appealing.

Deb

PS - Of course I realised that a term like 'katarche' would be used, I wanted to check it actually was, to investigate when that word begins to get linked with concerns of the 4th house. I am checking out other sources too. I don't accept the recent arguments on the history of horary, I'm aware of them but disagree on several significant points. In time I'll make my own report on the ancient references and demonstrated uses of horary in classical and pre-classical texts - not as an argument to anyone else, simply as a statement of my own views based on my own investigation on the history of horary.

No perhaps about it - Holden's translation is of interest because it gives a specific reference to horary astrologers.

Ok. I personally dont understand ancient Greek so I thought a bit of caution (for once!) was justified).

It really does - whether the original text intended that obviously needs checking. Either way, both Rhetorius and Ptolemy relate the 4th house to astrological scrutiny of mysteries which is what I find most appealing.

Yes I agree. Its so different from the modern understanding of the house. Its give you quite a different understanding of the house for natal analysis too.

PS - Of course I realised that a term like 'katarche' would be used, I wanted to check it actually was and will be checking other sources too. I don't accept the arguments of Schmidt or Brennan on the history of horary, I'm aware of them but disagree on several points. In time I'll make my own report on the ancient references and demonstrated uses of horary in classical and pre-classical texts, not as an argument to anyone else, simply as a statement of my own views based on my own research into this.

Somehow I rather expected you might disagree! Thats fine. I have to declare my complete neutrality in this debate. However, horary had to come from somewhere. If the late 6-7th century astrologer like Rhetorius was not doing horary you have to wonder how horary managed to became so well established for the 9th century Persian astrologers.

Mark

This thread is getting very interesting.

Could this mean that Horary Astrology started from electional Astrology.
The astrologer was initially a Omen reader,Divinator,deciding the time of or divining the outcome of the sacrifice or an event had taken place at a particular time- i.e inception of an event to inception of an idea(Horary).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katarche

Astrologer is 4th in Katarche because the event is Divine but 7th in horary as it is more of a Counsellor-Querent relationship and horary astrology became a 'Transaction' between two people rather than between Astrologer and God

This shift could very well be a trying to fit astrology into a new religious belief system.

PD

I have to declare my complete neutrality in this debate

So do I.

This thread is getting very interesting.

Could this mean that Horary Astrology started from electional Astrology.
The astrologer was initially a Omen reader,Divinator,deciding the time of or divining the outcome of the sacrifice or an event had taken place at a particular time- i.e inception of an event to inception of an idea(Horary).

Hello Pankajdubey,

In the spirit of free enquiry Deb will not mind me giving this link to this article by Chris Brennan with his view on the origins of horary. Actually, its not strictly Chris Brennan's theory but that of the noted academic David Pingree which Chris Brennan supports. I thought it might be of interest to you especially as this theory postulates that horary astrology was first developed in India and brought to the west much later. A key text used to support this theory is a late 3rd century Indian astrological text entitled the Yavanaj?taka of Sphujidhvaja. The relevat charts discussed in the text were essentially consultation charts. However, David Pingree argued from this could be seen as the origin of the use of interrogations ( ie. horary) in India. Pingree maintained the full development and widespread use of the system of interrogations did not become apparent in India until the 6th century with the works of the well-known Indian astrologer Var?hamihra and especially his son Prithuyasas (c. 600 CE) in his Shatpanchasika.

http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/B ... Horary.pdf

Mark