Ed F wrote:Date of the event in question?

I have no idea.
The PD can be calculated without knowing the event but of course it would help.

Bob did post a link to a previous thread where Isaac Starkman presented a list of directions for the chart of Prince Charles. Among these was:

Marriage 29 July 1981
Sun 180 MC 10'

In other words, according to Isaac, the Sun would be conjunct the IC around 32.5 years, making the arc of direction about 32 degrees (rounding it off a bit, and assuming a Naibod key).

However, the lower meridian distance of the Sun in Prince Charles's chart is around 37?48'. So either Isaac has miscalculated, or his method of finding the arc of direction for the Sun to the IC is different from the traditional method. I have no idea what such an alternative method might be. As far as I can see from Rumen Kolev's software, the directions to the angles calculated there are exactly the same irrespective of the system used ('topocentric' not excepted).

I get 19 Jan 87 for Sun direct to IC (same direction as above) using naibod, regardless of whether it's a zodiacal or mundane direction.

My guess is we have a data entry error or something like that. Topo PDs do not differ for the angles in my experience.

edit:

not the same direction as what is described below which is the direction of the oppposition to the sun to the MC. So this msg can be ignored.

Here is that same Topocentric Primary Direction shown through Alexander Marr's Astro program...

TPD are counted under the pole. Results Morinus under the pole will be close to TPD, but depends on the pole.

Under pole Sun: op MC C => Sun TPD 23.5.1981
op MC C => Sun Placidus 23.3.1981 (Morinus 21.3.1981)

Pole radix : op Sun D => MC 17.3.1987 (Morinus 12.3.1987)

Hello,

Since Astro and Polaris agree on the Topocentric Primary Direction timing, there must be an error (elsewhere) in computational methods.

Here are the correct formula for Topocentric positioning (not just adapting Topocentric houses to normal methodology)...

Hope this helps to get to the bottom of the problem...

(reprinted with permission. Sorry for the scribbles.)

Re: "So what every hocus pocus is used to change the MDA it is the most marvellous magic to behold. Poooof! it works!"

I certainly don't believe there is any sleight-of-hand at work.

I tried every existent method that I could find and none of the Primary Directions lined up with the events of my life. In fact, as others have posted, VERY POOR results.

Topocentric Primary Directions, on the other hand worked with my events' timing and very tightly, which leads me to make the following statement:

As they work infinitely better than previously existent methods, whatever "magic" is necessary would be infinitely justified.

Many of you have much more experience with various Primary Directions than I do. Is there another Primary Direction system that someone is aware of that gives results similar to Topocentric Primary Directions, as listed below? (note orbs, the tight timing is (at least) half the "magic")

Death of Father

Pluto square MC 0? 6'

Death of Mother

SNode opposite Asc 0? 1'

Selected for Gov't job

Venus opposite Jupiter 0? 1'

Birth of Son

Mars sextile 5th 0? 1'

Wedding (1st)

Asc conjunct Node 0? 10'

Birth of Twins

Mercury conjunct Asc 0? 6'

Death of Grandmother

Pluto conjunct Node 0? 4'

Wedding (2nd)

Asc conjunct Venus 0? 0'

Birth of Son

Jupiter conjunct IC 0? 0'

Death of Step-father

Moon conjunct Pluto 0? 2'

Hopefully, we can get to the bottom of the math, so that Bulletbobb's questions can be answered.

I have a feeling that after Ed and perhaps Petr (and anyone else who cares to) look over the previous post's mathematics, that there will be an "aha" moment.


Peace

Atlantean

Hello Petr

Petr wrote:TPD are counted under the pole. Results Morinus under the pole will be close to TPD, but depends on the pole.

Under pole Sun: op MC C => Sun TPD 23.5.1981
op MC C => Sun Placidus 23.3.1981 (Morinus 21.3.1981)

Pole radix : op Sun D => MC 17.3.1987 (Morinus 12.3.1987)

how you did 23.05.1981? I got an arc of 37.34 - so we eliminate the key effect- here I used Naibod as in Makransky book.
Obviously the same with semiarc directions.


And in theory it should be the same with these Topocentric. From Makransky book, II page 85:
"observe that the MC is the significator ....arc= RAp-RAMC. When the ascendant is significator Arc= OAp-OASsc"

Here= 230-(180+12?39') 37?21'=37.35

Or am I wrong in something?

margherita

Petr has already solved the conundrum. The direction originally referred to by Isaac was not the direct direction of the Sun to the IC, but the 'converse' direction of the natal IC degree to the Sun, calculated under the Sun's pole. (I use 'converse' here in the modern, non-traditional sense: an imaginary backwards motion, against time.) Thank you, Petr.

I am at a loss to understand what this direction, even if it were valid, would have to do with marriage; but that's another question...

Martin Gansten wrote:Petr has already solved the conundrum. The direction originally referred to by Isaac was not the direct direction of the Sun to the IC, but the 'converse' direction of the natal IC degree to the Sun, calculated under the Sun's pole. (I use 'converse' here in the modern, non-traditional sense: an imaginary backwards motion, against time.) Thank you, Petr.

C stands for converse? I did not catch before....
All these numbers make me crazy
Bravo Petr!

I am at a loss to understand what this direction, even if it were valid, would have to do with marriage; but that's another question

Well it was the same I was thinking. MC could be taken for marriage, but the MC opposition I don't know.

margherita

Yes, it's as Martin says.

Hi,
Margherita

Date May 23, 1981 based on the calculation of TPD in Placidus 6 R.Kolev.

Polaris gives the same value, calculated correctly. Morinus TPD does not yet.