Hi all

I was reading a newspaper article on the Pope election ritual and
suddenly I was struck by this question: "How long until the cardinals
reach agreement on the new Pope?"

April 16, 2005, at 8:10:53 pm EEDT, Tirgu Mures, Romania (24e34,
46n33)
ASC: 27Lib43, Moon 27Can58

the Moon was void at the time... in Cancer, cardinal sign... 2 degrees
and 2 minutes until she enters the next sign, that would be a little bit more than 2 days !

The ceremony will start today (April 18 ) at 4:30 pm ... so agreement will be reached at around 5:18 pm on April 20

Interestingly, Mercury, ruler of the 9th, is in trine with the MC with
an orb of also 2 degrees.

I'm really curious about this, if this will come true.

Any other takes on this chart ? I would love to read other ways to see this chart.

Best wishes,
Radu

Very interesting observation! I agree with you!

since the moon is void, i think you're not supposed to judge the chart

Hi,
I haven't looked at the chart, but if the ASC and MOON coordinates are correct, I agree with the above reply: the chart is invalid, it should not be judged. It is one of the basics of horary astrology.
ASC: 27Lib43, Moon 27Can58
Paul Paral

It is so: the Moon is void of course. But the Moon VOC doesn't invalidate any chart. It just denies any future events related to the question, because the Moon represents the events. In most cases this is a 'No' answer to the question (depends on how the question is phrased).

I think that the current situation in Vatican is like the void of the Moon: nothing happens. The cardinals are locked inside, no one has access to them, no one knows what happens, so for us, the outer world, there are no events --> like during the void of course Moon.

A similar horary question is the one on Pope's death: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=851 (also Moon VOC)

But there is another take on when the Moon is VOC.
Maurice McCann says the Moon is VOC when it cannot apply within the moiety of orbs to other planets ( http://www.tara-astrology.com/index.php?id=141 ).
In this case, the Moon is in trine with Mercury, so it is not VOC.
The orb is 4 deg. 35 min. indicating 4 days and a half to go until a new Pope will be elected. (in the morning of April 23).

Two different ways to see the chart... btw, here it is:

Well, in this case it is not only Moon VOC, but the Ascendant is past 27th degree, therefore indicating invalid chart. I do agree that it is possible at certain condition to judge a chart with Moon VOC, but with two indicators showing invalidity I would take that in consideration.
Paul Paral

Thank you for your input, Paul.
I understand very well what you say, but philosophically speaking - why would this question generate an invalid chart ? I was well intended, no hidden thoughts, I was really focused on the question and wanting to know the answer.

There is an answer to my well-intended question (they reached agreement in 1 day), so it must be in the chart.

As I kept watching this chart, I noticed that the distance from the 9th house ruler (the 115 cardinals) Mercury to the 10th house ruler (the leader), the Sun is of 24 deg 15 min. If we take as a measuring unit "hours" this would give the correct answer.
The cardinals entered the Sistine Chapel on April 18 at 4:30 pm, the white smoke poured from the chimneys on April 19 at 5:50 pm and as they must have agreed on the new Pope up to one hour earlier, the time interval was of 24-25 hours.
Viewing the chart this way, the distance between Mercury and the Sun, translated into hours (cardinal sign, Aries) gives the right answer.

What do you say ?

One might see it another way. The cardinals are represented by the 9th. Their assembly, the conclave, would be the turned 11th house (of groups), which is the radix 7th house.
The Sun is ruler of the 10th (the leader to be elected).
We see the exalted Sun about to enter the 7th in 1 degree=1 day (the new leader was elected by the cardinals assembly in 1 day)

So it's like the answer was there in the chart, but we were unable to reach it...

Hi Siraxi,

It's not that your intentions weren't valid but that the chart had an ascendant that was later than 27deg. This is one of the considerations before judgement, suggesting that it is too late to be asking this question or perhaps that the matter had been decided. This is probably one of the considerations I am most likely to pay attention to.

As you pointed out, there are different beliefs about what is a VOC Moon and what isn't. Lilly often accepted the Moon in an out of sign aspect as long as it was within orb and he would not consider it to be VOC even though it had to change signs to perfect. I find this a bit contradictory and inconsistent to other situations since he clearly only saw combustion as being within the same sign. But I won't start that argument again. And whoever said Lilly was consistent?

As Sue pointed out: It's not that your intentions weren't valid but that the chart had an ascendant that was later than 27deg. This is one of the considerations before judgment, suggesting that it is too late to be asking this question or perhaps that the matter had been decided.
There are hundreds of horary charts, which I have not judged because of late Ascendant degrees, even my intentions were as well intended as yours. And one may return to them, as you did, and see something there, which was not obvious before. But that still makes the charts at the time of the question unreadable. I always return to all charts, which I did not judge, just to see if there is anything to be seen. Most of the time, in the case of early, or late Ascendant degrees, there isn't anything to see with the exception of the fact that is was either too soon, or too late to ask. Sometimes one finds, after the fact, answers as you did. But this is not an argument for judging these charts as valid. I bet most astrologers who practice horary could tell stories about looking at charts after the fact and seeing the answers there (regardless if they were valid or invalid), which they were unable to see at the time of asking the question. That is the frustration, but also a beauty of horary art.
Paul Paral

Interesting. If I got it correctly, the late Ascendant charts doesn't mean that the chart cannot be interpreted, but it will be interpreted correctly only after the matter inquired about happen. So the astrologer's correct judgment will come too late.
In other cases, it may mean that the matter has already been settled and there is nothing that the astrologer can say or the querent can do in order to alter the outcome.
In either case, trying to interpret the chart is kind of useless.
Wow, this has been a lesson on the late Ascendant... Thanks.