Hello Yuzuru,

yuzuru wrote: Using a real example, Bill Clinton has a angular mars in a diurnal chart. Besides that mars is in detriment. He seems to have a very accomplished life, besides some sexual scandal and a heart surgery. What would you suggest that mars would have affected him?

I hope no, considering my birth chart

Anyway I don't think that planets against sect don't allow to be famous or have a good life; in my experience mostly they give the sudden loss, scandals, something like that.

In every case it's interesting Mars-Venus rising in Libra with Saturn and Mercury which beheld them: it's the classical combination which makes people inclined to sex, with Mercury making their business public,

margherita

~Kent~ wrote: It?s ironic or perhaps logical that someone whose youth is characterized by apparently no parental love should go on to become one of the most beloved people of the 20th Century.

Or simply resonant of how this placement is regarded as inclining someone to desperately seek popularity, the trine to Mars may have provided him with the energy to do something about this fear of insignificance. I imagine when the public presence waned the Black Dog became less tolerable.

A planet essentially dignified works for good and manifests its positive qualities, while its bark is worse than its bite. This holds true for both Saturn and Mars. Remember that without the Saturnian principle of restriction, patience and perseverance none of the great things that made this world go round would have happened! The same with Mars: he provides the energy, drive, enthusiasm and power needed to make it through life. When essentially dignified (as in Aries, Scorpio or Capricorn), its positive nature tends to manifest.

By your description it is logical to conclude from the facts of his life that Churchill must have had an essentially dignified Mars rather than one debilitated in Libra. Am I dense?

HOWARD B SAYER wrote:Or simply resonant of how this placement is regarded as inclining someone to desperately seek popularity, the trine to Mars may have provided him with the energy to do something about this fear of insignificance. I imagine when the public presence waned the Black Dog became less tolerable.

Which placement inclines him to seek popularity?

Are you saying Mars in Libra/1st trine Saturn in Aquarius/5th can be understood to be his Mars (his assertive energy, fight, courage, his pluck) overcomes Saturn's difficulties (fear of insignificance)?

Saturn dignified in Aquarius should perform admirably. Where can we see his fear of insignificance indicated? What you seem to be saying is Mars, although essentially debilitated actually does show up with the best Martian qualities. And that Saturn, essentially dignified, shows up as a problem that must be overcome.

And yes, the black dog, as he called it, is very interesting. Where would that be seen his chart?

~Kent~ wrote: []

Which placement inclines him to seek popularity?

Are you saying Mars in Libra/1st trine Saturn in Aquarius/5th can be understood to be his Mars (his assertive energy, fight, courage, his pluck) overcomes Saturn's difficulties (fear of insignificance)?

Saturn dignified in Aquarius should perform admirably. Where can we see his fear of insignificance indicated? What you seem to be saying is Mars, although essentially debilitated actually does show up with the best Martian qualities. And that Saturn, essentially dignified, shows up as a problem that must be overcome.

And yes, the black dog, as he called it, is very interesting. Where would that be seen his chart?

I was talking solely about Saturn in the 5th. If the 5th is the pivotal 'Me' area of the chart, and Saturn symbolises some of the constraints imposed on being reared as a significant individual, then a human being is more disposed to seek out this recognition in places other than Ma and Pa and what better way than to cultivate some admirers.

If you haven't read it:
http://www.amazon.ca/Churchills-Black-D ... 194&sr=1-9

It should have been called Churchill and his 5th house Saturn.

Saturn here could have the effect of inducing such a degree of loneliness, shyness and sadness that interacting much with the public is a step to far. I can't really comment about Churchill as, other than he liked a big cigar, I know relatively little about his life. However it's quite a light chart overall, it's not as though this depression of his stopped him getting out and about.

Maybe we should bring the Sun into the discussion of the joys of Mars and Saturn. As Mark mentioned, sect is important. The Sun determines the division into diurnal and nocturnal. The Sun's daily motion has also contributed to the meanings of the houses, giving significance to the rising individual with its own eastern rising, to the success, honor and power of the individual with its culmination at noon, and the individual's susceptibility to others and mortality with its western setting.

Traditionally, the superior planets were considered to be in a position of accidental strength after having recently exited from combustion and therefore placed early in an oriental relationship to the Sun. Being placed oriental of the Sun is good for the superior planets; being placed closely oriental but free of combustion is very good. If the Sun is rising toward a new day then a 12th house Saturn, a diurnal planet with its joy in the 12th, would closely precede it, itself being preceded by diurnal Jupiter with its joy in the 11th house (also closely oriental). When the 7th house Sun is approaching its setting in the west and the world is heading into night, a 6th house Mars would be in a desirable combustion-free and closely oriental position. Nocturnal Mars gets to lead the Sun into the night, being preceded by nocturnal Venus at her joy in the 5th house.

Being strongly oriental and in the proper sect hemisphere, along with being subdued in weaker cadent houses, would seem to make the malefics less grumpy, feisty and itching to cause some trouble. Maybe ? way, way, deep down in their heart of hearts ? they really want to be nice guys and appreciate the houses they have been given for their joy as houses where they can be a little softer than they come across as being. But, as already pointed out, once a malefic always a malefic ? potentially, anyway. From what I've seen so far, I don't think astrologers over the centuries have been at all comfortable with those two and haven't figured out what to do with them. Hence: elect a time when the malefics are placed in the house of their joy. AND ? don't elect a time when the malefics are placed in the house of their joy.

Using Churchill as an example his Mars is below the horizon in a nocturnal chart.
Is that is what you mean by correct sect?
And it is oriental, rising before the Sun but not immediately before Sun.
(In more contemporary astrology only the planet rising immediately before the Sun is called oriental.)
But rather than confined to a cadent house, his Mars is angular in the most powerful house of all, the 1st.
By your description we have a mixed bag.
I do get the sense that Churchill has a profound temper and that he was often ?grumpy, feisty and itching to cause some trouble.?
And considering his role in 20th Century world history I think that was a very good thing.
He was the only awake person while England slept.

Howard Sayer

The book you recommended by Anthony Storr on Churchill, Newton and Kafka looks great. $90 new, $60 used! But I need to find a good bio of Churchill. He's like a titan. We don't have his likes too much these days. He could be so WRONG too. Said he didn't want to preside over the downfall of the Empire and probably hated Gandhi. He is like a Shakespearean character with great, admirable strengths and great foibles.

I was focusing on possible reasons why Mars was assigned its joy in the 6th house in all charts and didn't particularly care to join the discussion on Churchill's chart.

Using Churchill as an example his Mars is below the horizon in a nocturnal chart.
Is that is what you mean by correct sect?

The sect of the chart is the major consideration. The Sun is beneath the horizon so the chart is nocturnal. Mars, a nocturnal planet, is best in a nocturnal chart. The second consideration, not quite as important, is the sect placement of the planets in relationship to the Sun. The chart is nocturnal because the Sun is beneath the horizon, but Mars is diurnally placed because it's in the same hemisphere as the Sun. To be even better in a nocturnal chart Mars should be above the horizon ? not in the same hemisphere as the Sun.

Churchill's Mars is very favorably placed in its planetary cycle in relation to the Sun: It's oriental in an applying sextile. An applying occidental sextile with Mars in Aquarius wouldn't be as favorable for Mars' strength and ability to act (it would still be OK, though). As a nocturnal planet in a nocturnal chart Mars is less problematic than it would be in a diurnal chart. But Mars is in detriment in Libra ? so yes, it does all sort of wash out into a mixed bag. I'm still unsure of how to combine the various factors. Working on it . . . slowly.

Mars in the 6th has also long been said to indicate the potential of being a good surgeon. You know ? slicing folks open . . . It's s-o-o Mars.

~Kent~ wrote:Howard Sayer

The book you recommended by Anthony Storr on Churchill, Newton and Kafka looks great. $90 new, $60 used!

You should be able to find it easy enough in a second hand bookshop for a few quid.