L1 combust is a major red flag. Personally I wouldn't try to answer this question.

Tara

Astroswift wrote:

...the employer's money goes into the 11th House, and Jupiter rules it.

This seemed logical to me too, but everyone else seemed to use the 8th house. Could someone explain why this as opposed to the 11th? Thanks.

BTW, I don't know if this is pertinent or not, but in utilizing Lilly's rules for "Is the rumor true", i.e., is the coworker the culprit?, only 1 out of 6 of the criteria applies (all angles being fixed), so according to that, it would seem to support all the other indicators that it isn't true.

This seemed logical to me too, but everyone else seemed to use the 8th house. Could someone explain why this as opposed to the 11th? Thanks.

My reasoning is threefold:
1. There are antiscia aspects of querent/quesited with Mercury
2. Mercury is a natural sig for money via Lilly
3. The querent is paying her own money (2nd house ruler Jupiter retro in an applying opp from Mercury), so this is turning into a debt owed (8th house: debt, other people's money).

Another thing that might be true regarding Mercury-Jupiter/Uranus opp is dogmatic views or jumping to the wrong conclusion without solid evidence. Since the Moon is involved here and is always influenced by other bodies, that could be descriptive of the querent.

If we see money--bills and coins--as an implement, Mercury as its ruler would kind of make sense.

As Mercury is in his own sign and opposite Jupiter/Uranus, could it be that no money is actually missing?? Is someone playing with the querent's mind?

Tanit and Astroswift, thanks for your input. I can kind of see your reasoning, but the hardest thing for me is knowing when to use general planet significators instead of just sticking to the house ruler method, which seems a little easier as far as having more definite rules and structure to go by, but even that can get pretty tricky and confusing when you have multiple significators in one question! I guess it's just a matter of getting enough experience to know what to use when.

Tanit and Astroswift, thanks for your input. I can kind of see your reasoning, but the hardest thing for me is knowing when to use general planet significators instead of just sticking to the house ruler method, which seems a little easier as far as having more definite rules and structure to go by, but even that can get pretty tricky and confusing when you have multiple significators in one question! I guess it's just a matter of getting enough experience to know what to use when.

This is a good point, and it could be that I am not using the same technique. I'm not familiar with income of the job so much, and I thought the 8th was still other people's money in those types of charts, since the money is still endig up being someone else's (7th house being other people in general). I have seen others use the 11th for income of a new job and it didn't seem to work properly. Income from a job is still your income, which seems like the 2nd. It could be because the 11th is the boss or job's income though, as you are saying here. I thought income for the job was 2nd and other people's money in general was 8th house. When we think of inheritances or loans from others, for example, we lump it into the 8th house, we don't usually think of the 2nd from this or that house showing money coming from the person with the turned 1st house ruler.

Perhaps in other charts the 11th ruler was more key, but here the 2nd and the 11th ruler are the same planet and opposite the 8th ruler. I usually look at the 8th as debt, other people's money, and also general loss for the querent. Maybe a simple way of looking at it is that Mercury-Jupiter here is a 2nd/8th connection period, meaning her own money (2nd) coming in is lost (8th)? Her own income is lost here, and the possibility of maintaining a salary if she doesn't fix the problem even, because she could lose her job. Jupiter is probably still relevant for money or income here too by being the 2nd ruler (and 11th ruler if you use the 2nd from the 10th), but it could show the job's money ending up being her money also, since she has to pay for any money lost via the 8th house? I guess it's not so much about the job's money being taken as it is that it's ending up being her loss that the money is missing (since no one else's cash register is in question). She feels targeted for the money coming up missing, so it's not the job's financial issue, it's hers.

.. I guess it's not so much about the job's money being taken as it is that it's ending up being her loss that the money is missing (since no one else's cash register is in question). She feels targeted for the money coming up missing, so it's not the job's financial issue, it's hers...

Don't we first have to establish whether the coworker is taking the money or not? Since that's the original question of the horary, and he's the 7th, doesn't his own money have to be the 8th? And if he's not taking the money, he's not really causing the debt, and the 8th is just his money.

But if the money is missing from her own carelessness (giving customers wrong change, etc.), that is her own debt, which would also need to be the 8th, and that's already taken, as described above. So maybe it would be easier to just stick with the original question of "is he a thief" or "is the rumor true" (that he's a thief)? Otherwise, it seems the significators get a little too overloaded and tangled up in each other, IMO.

My thought early on in the thread was that various points, such as the combust state and 8th house placement of the querent's significator, suggest that her assumptions are unreliable, which seems to be opinion that most contributors have come to.

With regard to the signification of money, in matters of theft the 2nd house signifies the querent's money (or the money that she holds in her possession) and the 8th house signifies the money in the possesion of the other party. So we look for indications of movement or contact between these two houses and their rulers - for example, the 2nd house ruler being either *in* the 8th house, making an aspectual contact *to* the 8th house cusp, or being aspected *by* the 8th house ruler, are all indications of the querent's money being given to or taken by the other person. The use of the 11th house doesn't really play a part in this technique as described by the traditional texs.

I agree the quesited is signified by the 7th house (the house of theft), but it's also important to see the man being described as a thief by some signature of malice or dishonest intent in his planetary signification. Usually the Sun does not come up as the significator of a thief because the Sun is an 'open' and 'light-filled' planet which is fundamentally attached to the principle of revelation. In this chart the Sun is in detriment and cionjunct Saturn, which might describe this man as basically honest but presently corrupted because of difficult circumstances, but even such a person as this would be unlikely to uphold a false persona over a long period of time. On the other hand, Saturn is a tradition significator for forgetfulness (CA p.321), and is suffering combustion, which seems to describe the querent as being in some way lapse about her own control of the money.

I also agree that some open dialogue between the two would be useful - even if the querent only made sure the man knew how concerned she was, and that she was aware of her need to watch her own money more carefully.

Regards
Deb

Deb says:
"for example, the 2nd house ruler being either *in* the 8th house, making an aspectual contact *to* the 8th house cusp, or being aspected *by* the 8th house ruler, are all indications of the querent's money being given to or taken by the other person"

What I find weird about this horary is that with the Moon translating light between Lord 8 and Lord 2, it's the other way around to what you would expect if he was a thief. I was thinking maybe the Moon translating light from Lord 2 to Lord 8 might show the money going from her possession to his possession. But it's the other way around, it translates from Lord 8 to Lord 2, it's almost more like she's taking money from him. I did wonder if this guy ends up forking out his own money as a gesture of good will or, he's forced to, when he's not a thief at all.

Also, looking back at the chart a second time, Lord 11 (as well as Lord2) is also Jupiter , so again this could show a translation of light between his wallet (Mercury, Lord8) to the job's coffers, Jupiter (Lord 11). Again it might show him forking out his own money because of accusations of theft, when actually he's not a thief at all.

Very delicate issue. Hope it all resolves itself.

A practical, non-astrological question--
If she is indeed making errors of this kind, why didn't her track record prior to the vacation indicate the same kind of errors? According to the background given, her till stayed even for the 5 months of her employment before the vacation.

Let me answer my own question--here in the US, the academic season just started. Around the date on the chart, people are just starting the school year. I wonder if the reason for the errors was because business was picking up and things at the shop have gotten a little 'hot and heavy'(quite fitting for a Sun-Saturn conjunction eh?). When money expenditures get hurried, cashiers tend to make errors(as I work in a supermarket, I know this very well). New American $20 bills do tend to 'stick together', so we have to be careful when we give them out as change. So perhaps in the 5 months prior, she had not dealt with such high volumes of business, but now that the school year has just started and the weather is getting cooler, people are more prone to getting coffee, meeting and greeting, etc etc. The Sun and Saturn are in Libra, and the 9th House(Whole Signs Equal), perhaps the business was being flooded with new students, foreign visitors, and return of loyal clientele from last school season..?? A coffee shop nearby is convenient if you have an early-morning class and no time or inclination to make breakfast.

Don't we first have to establish whether the coworker is taking the money or not? Since that's the original question of the horary, and he's the 7th, doesn't his own money have to be the 8th? And if he's not taking the money, he's not really causing the debt, and the 8th is just his money.

But if the money is missing from her own carelessness (giving customers wrong change, etc.), that is her own debt, which would also need to be the 8th, and that's already taken, as described above. So maybe it would be easier to just stick with the original question of "is he a thief" or "is the rumor true" (that he's a thief)? Otherwise, it seems the significators get a little too overloaded and tangled up in each other, IMO.

Yes, but I think it's hard to ignore more important significations and head right to Lord 7 to Lord 8 connections as indicating theft (or whatever house you want to use for the money). Again, the Sun is not aspecting anything but the querent anyway (and this is after the question was asked), so even if you look for a significator for the money being with this person as a potential theif, it doesn't seem to implicate the Sun here. I don't think antiscia aspects are indicative of theft here, especially since the querent is also involved in that aspect.

Tanit wrote:

...Again, the Sun is not aspecting anything but the querent anyway (and this is after the question was asked), so even if you look for a significator for the money being with this person as a potential theif, it doesn't seem to implicate the Sun here...

I think maybe the following might be relevant here: Deb wrote:

With regard to the signification of money, in matters of theft the 2nd house signifies the querent's money (or the money that she holds in her possession) and the 8th house signifies the money in the possesion of the other party. So we look for indications of movement or contact between these two houses and their rulers - for example, the 2nd house ruler being either *in* the 8th house, making an aspectual contact *to* the 8th house cusp, or being aspected *by* the 8th house ruler, are all indications of the querent's money being given to or taken by the other person

According to the above, wouldn't 2 out of 3 of those rules apply, thereby implicating the Sun/coworker?, i.e., 1) 2nd house ruler making an aspectual contact (opposition) *to* the 8th house cusp, and 2) 2nd house ruler aspected *by* the 8th house ruler (opposition again).