and to add to that

Chile's 'La Nacion' newspaper has a report dated 6th August which gives the time as just after 2pm. Frustratingly, it's quoting the same person ... the mayor of Copiapo.

"...Este accidente ocurri? pasadas las 14 horas y reci?n se vino a avisar pasadas las 18 horas. No sabemos por qu? tanta irresponsabilidad?, dijo el edil,..."

http://www.lanacion.cl/mineros-atrapado ... 04657.html

Still, that article does say 34 miners, not 33...

Regards

H

Hi H!!!
La Tercera is a newspaper Santiago of Chile, the two newspapers in the Third Region (Atacama, city of Copiapo) are "El Cha?arcito, http://www.chanarcillo.cl/ and "El diario de Atacama" http://www.diarioatacama.cl/matriz/index.html .
Regards
Mario

Whoops, sorry for that mistake, thanks for correcting it!

From the local papers that Mario kindly provided....

This is what I could find, mentions of the timing...

Report on 10th August... mentions 2pm...

"...luego de que se produjera un derrumbe pasadas las 14:00 horas en la mina San Jos? de la empresa San Esteban,..."

http://www.chanarcillo.cl/articulos_ver.php?id=30887

Report on 6th August... mentions 'before 3pm'...

"Seg?n las primeras informaciones, el hecho ocurri? antes de las 15 horas de ayer, sin embargo se entreg? el aviso a las autoridades competentes s?lo hasta alrededor de las 17 horas para comenzar a desplazarse hasta ese lugar pasadas las 19 horas."

http://www.diarioatacama.cl/prontus4_no ... 02049.html

This article seems to be saying that the miners started the shift at 8am on the 5th August...

"...al norte de Copiap?, manten?a hasta el cierre de esta edici?n atrapados a un total de 33 trabajadores pertenecientes al turno de 7 x 7 y que ingres? a la faena a las 08:00 horas de este jueves 5 de agosto."

http://www.chanarcillo.cl/articulos_ver.php?id=30715

Regards

H.

Great thread. Thanks for all the informative input.

However, why is everyone saying the Moon is void of course in the chart for the emergence of the first miner? Its applying by planetary orb to a dexter square of Saturn.

Mark

Mar wrote:However, why is everyone saying the Moon is void of course in the chart for the emergence of the first miner? Its applying by planetary orb to a dexter square of Saturn.

This sounds familiar. Saturn is not on the threshold of the sign - but further than 3 degrees into it. There appears to be several opinions around, but those are the requirements I apply in my practice.

This sounds familiar. Saturn is not on the threshold of the sign - but further than 3 degrees into it.

I am not clear what being over 3 degrees into a sign has got to do with it? I am discussing planetary orbs. The moeity orb of the Moon and Saturn is 10.5 degrees. Using fixed orbs the Moon's orb is 12 degrees.

There appears to be several opinions around, but those are the requirements I apply in my practice.

Ok. I am partly influenced by Sue Ward's discovery that Lilly and others applied planetary orbs across the sign boundary. At one time people like Olivia Barclay were teaching VOC Moon was the Moon not perfecting an aspect before leaving a sign. Essentially the modern definition. However, her understanding of Lilly and other traditional astrologers on VOC Moon turned out to be incorrect.

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~sueward/a ... 0lilly.htm

Research into hellenistic astrology has also demonstrated the definition was far rarer than the modern interpretation and allowed aspect across the sign boundary.

Re. Void of Course:

Mark wrote:I am not clear what being over 3 degrees into a sign has got to do with it? I am discussing planetary orbs. The moeity orb of the Moon and Saturn is 10.5 degrees. Using fixed orbs the Moon's orb is 12 degrees.

It is off topic but interesting and as long as I am permitted the space I will explain my view:
Sign cusps divide and keep things apart. The sign boundary has a sealing, preventive and protective effect. For some reason, there is the opinion that a planet was saved from combustion if located in the sign adjacent to the Sun - however, it would still be considered as under the Sun's beams. ('Simplified Horary Astrology' - Goldstein-Jacobsen pg 86; 'Horary Astrology Rediscovered' - Barclay, pg 86).

The last 3 degrees have to do with letting go of a sign. The first 3 degrees have to do with establishing or re-establishing. This relates to the old stricture that if the ascendant was in the last 3 degrees of a sign, the question was 'too late in the day' to be answered or resolved. Or if the ascendant was in the first 3 degrees the question was early, maybe too early and the matter in question was not yet fully established. This rule or balance is also reflected in the exaltation degrees of the planets, ie. the Moon is exalted in 3 Taurus and Venus in 27 Pisces. Here they are comfortable. If a planet is within 3 degrees of the wall, it is still within 'knocking-distance' of the neighbouring sign. It can hear the muffle and reorientate to what is going on - on the other side. If the planet is beyond 3 degrees of the cusp, it is out of reach - does no longer relate to the other place - or can't make out the words if it wanted to. Matter uncertain - as if non-existant.

The Moon VOC in the end of a sign applying by body or aspect to a planet in the first 3 degrees of the next, is like an appointment or intention - but the matter cannot be treated here and now, today - it is not a dead-end promise or the the same as an obvious conclusion. 'We will look at the matter next, tomorrow or when we get there in the next room and setting and will pick up business at that point, all matters being equal'. A planet void of course in a sign is 'released from its shift', but it still has to get into the next sign before it can get back into business and 'hands-on' the situation. A planet not being able to complete it's application to a planet before the next sign is frustrated.

A planet void of course at the end of a sign is like a runner approaching a sportsstadium. The audience have been warned that he/she is on the approach and the crowd outside the stadium may be heard to cheer, but the runner hasn't yet entered the stadium or crossed the finishing line. As we know from the sports section, the full length of 90 minutes has to be played in a football game and then the game may go into extra play before the referee can blow the final whistle - and the matter is decided. The void of course leaves room for the unexpected.

I've been looking at Mario's charts. There is something fascinating here about the Moon at the time of the accident being moved to the ascendant at time of the miners escape. There is a maxim delivered from Hermes that says the the position of the Moon at conception shall be the ascendant at the time of birth. And the miners were brought back to the living when they travelled through the tight escape shaft and back up out into the open air.

The period of gestation is generally estimated as 280 days or 10 lunar months. However, the miners were trapped 69 days underneath the ground and this is 2,5 siderial lunar months (27,32 days). What does it mean? 2,5 siderial months is 1/4 of the gestation period spend by the fetus.

Notice also how at the moment the first miner reach the surface, the Moon was 69 degrees separate the Sun. Maybe the direction of the Moon says something about the adventure of the miners? It took 52 days from when it was discovered that the miners were alive until they were rescued. I am sure this gives food for thought.

Additionally, check out the upcoming partial solar eclipse on 4. January 2011. The eclipse occurs at 13CP39 in the first house of the event location, and opposes the Sun/Moon midpoint at 13CN32 in the chart for the collapsing of the mine.
Asc 2CP00 MC 18VI43 Sun/Moon 13CP39

The Moon's North node is 1CP59 and conjunct the local ascendant, thus not only the place of a fatal accident, but also of mass global attention. The MC/IC is along the same axis as the first Saturn/Uranus opposition in November 2008. Jupiter and Uranus make an exact conjunction in the 4th house, yet in the exaltation degree of Venus. In the end we did Sing and Shout for Joy!

Sign cusps divide and keep things apart. The sign boundary has a sealing, preventive and protective effect. For some reason, there is the opinion that a planet was saved from combustion if located in the sign adjacent to the Sun - however, it would still be considered as under the Sun's beams. ('Simplified Horary Astrology' - Goldstein-Jacobsen pg 86; 'Horary Astrology Rediscovered' - Barclay, pg 86).

Thanks for setting out your position Andrew. Interesting. I would love to continue the discussion further but I have already sidetracked this thread enough on this point. As moderator I need to moderate myself! I will contact you on PM.

regards

Mark

the thing I find most interesting in this thread is that no one has mentioned, or perhaps I missed it? that the miners were only found to be alive on the 22 of August. They hoped of course they were alive, but they didn't know until they got a borehole to the chamber they were in, whether anyone had survived the Mine collapse. Note the astrological changes from 5 august to 22 august, rather a more friendly chart, I'm thinking that mercury and the moon played some large parts in this rescue scenario. Just a thought.

though I also think that Chaos on the Aries point and Pluto in the earth exactly describe the situation, Jupiter retrogrades to bring benefit from Chaos. Just a few ideas. Granny