Hello all,

I have read that Saturn in the 7th house in decumbiture is a big warning that a physician will be biased, even if they are normally knowledgeable. I am wondering if this would still be the case when Saturn is essentially dignified? I had hoped that Saturn in exaltation might show carefulness (Lilly says that Saturn well dignified is "patient in labor"). Maybe it just shows that, like an astrologer when we get Saturn in the 7th, they are normally accurate but something is hindering their judgement?

http://i51.tinypic.com/9zoh8o.jpg
Chart in question: "will either doctor be helpful, and if so which one (or either)?"
[one doctor is Ukranian/fair skinned, the other East Indian/darker complexion, both in their 40's or so, which I thought might be descriptive]

If you're curious of a background, I am not very advanced in decumbiture yet, but a relative of mine (a Pisces Sun - as represented by Jupiter in Pisces here) asked my advice on choosing a physician. She has had health issues most of her life (Pisces can have lower vitality), and believes that she has a serious illness, but her previous bad experiences with doctors makes it difficult for her to see a doctor. This past week she has experienced severe dizziness and headaches, and I told her that she needs to see a doctor as soon as possible.

I went through internet sites with her on how to pick a good doctor via ratings of their patients. She only has so many choices through her insurance agency. Anyway, we liked two physicians and she wanted me to check their credibilities by a chart (in addition to the websites), as to whether one or either might be good. So I ended up with hour agreement (Venus rules the hr), and the 7th house in a mutable sign (two doctors). BUT Mercury, the 7th ruler, was combusted by the 6th ruler (and also has only a minor dignity). And then I saw Saturn in the 7th house, which I have read shows bias by a doctor, which is exactly what she has experienced in the past. So this is not looking so good for the doctors that appeared to be the best choices! But it seems as if this is what happens whenever she goes to the doctor, so maybe it's just a problem with diagnosis and most doctors not understanding her illness.

It was strange to see two qualified and well reviewed doctors represented this way (combust especially), so I told her that it probably will not matter who she chooses as a general practitioner (she might need to see a specialist), but to make sure that she explains her major problems succinctly (versus coming across as a weirdo: Jupiter conjunct Uranus in Pisces).

It is strange that the potential doctors are combusted by her disease ruler, as if they are unable to see the truth of the matter (maybe it is something hard to diagnose or that requires special diagnosis, etc.). The 6th house ruler is Sun in Libra, and she has had heart palpitations, and the dizziness (brain/heart issues). I wonder if it is a blood issue, such as anemia, but it could be something more serious, since this has been an on-going issue. I am not a doctor, just a meer microbiologist, but she has many symptoms of lupus, including rashes and hair loss. 6th house is Leo, fixed sign, but the 6th ruler is Libra cardinal, and it seems like it's one issue that's causing multiple problems. She feels clamy to the touch when she says that she is hot. The Moon squaring the 6th ruler and in detriment, translating Sun to Jupiter next, seems like it's something that needs attention. Normally I'd think it's good that the 1st ruler (health ruler) is in the 1st, but here she's retro and the Moon is translating light of the disease ruler to the 1st ruler. I think it's more likely descriptive of the headaches (1st house ruling the head).

Tanit, I think the chart clearly indicates that the doctors will not be helpful to your friend right now. They maybe skillful and good (Saturn in Libra may represent their professional merits, i guess you'd take first doctor to be L7, Mercury and second Saturn?) however, they are not going to be able to help your friend, and/or correctly diagnose her condition. I'm surprised how close this situation is to my own question about my mom's health. (No physicians involved there, but we are not sure how to help her and what exactly causes her symptoms, similar to your friends, she has frequent headaches and nausea). Anyway, you friend probably should seek help elsewhere -- alternative medicine, other doctors, other means?

Just my thoughts. Are you planning to come for Deb's workshop in SF, by any chance?

i guess you'd take first doctor to be L7, Mercury and second Saturn?

Good point. I guess you could say one is of the nature of the Sun and the other of Saturn? Mercury is convertable in nature.

She decided to try the East Indian doctor for at least a physical exam in two weeks. Maybe the blood work will show abnormality.

however, they are not going to be able to help your friend, and/or correctly diagnose her condition. I'm surprised how close this situation is to my own question about my mom's health.

Strange that you updated your post at the same time! I will check out your chart. I agree that this doesn't look very promising for a doctor helping her condition. Usually they dismiss her issues as some sort of simple illness, like the flu.

I have to think something is wrong with her because she started working out recently and she told me that she does not sweat, her heart beats oddly, her body gets cold and her head pounds. That's just not normal! I cannot even imagine how weird that is. I am physically active and always sweat.

Just my thoughts. Are you planning to come for Deb's workshop in SF, by any chance?

I wish I could go! I had it marked on my calendar a while ago, but I can't afford it right now. If you're going, I am super jealous!

I'm going! Maybe you could fine a way to attend -- this is such a treat to have Deb here! I was looking forward to it for a few months! Let me us know about you friend's health and what will come out of her doc. visit.

Tanit,

The significations indeed do not allow for a very clear conclusion. But after weighing the ?good? against the ?evil? in this chart, I would, ultimately, like to incline more towards the ?good?.

The following I regard as ?evil?:

Both the Luminaries essentially debilitated.
Lord of the Ascendant retrograde.
Lord of the VIII (death) exalted in the sign ascending.
Lord of the VII (the physician) falls in the sign ascending.
Mercury, lord of the VII (the physician), also lord of the IV (the outcome or end of the illness).
The Moon transfers light and virtue from the significator of the disease to the significator of the patient.
A fixed sign on the cusp of the VI with the first degree (the very beginning) upon it.
The Moon increasing in light at the time of illness and the casting of the figure.

The following I regard as ?good?:

Lord of the Ascendant a natural benefic, essentially dignified, in the Ascendant.
Both the luminaries are above the Earth.
Jupiter in the Ascendant in his own house.
The Moon in XI, a good house.
Venus, Lady of the VIII, debilitated and retrograde.
Venus in Trine with the degree ascending.
Lord of the IV combust.
Both the luminaries in movable signs, suggesting a short compass of time for the present phase of illness.
The Moon separates from an evil aspect and applies to the Lord of the Ascendant by a good aspect from a good house and above the Earth.
Neither of the Infortunes afflicts.
Mars is occidental and Saturn oriental.
The North Node on the cusp of the XI, ?hope, succour, relief?.
The dispositor of the Sun, the significator of the disease, weak.
The dispositors of the Moon and the Lord of the Ascendant strong.

Sundry observations:

Jupiter, the significator of the patient, occidental, shows disease that is not new but old. The Sun in an occidental house and sign possibly shows the same.
The Significator of the disease in the VII suggests something hidden or ?occult? - disease difficult to diagnose or the patient herself not sure where it lies.
Leo on the cusp of the VI, the Sun in the seventh sign of the zodiac and the Moon in the seventh sign from her own house, Cancer, point towards the Heart and the Kidneys. Since the Sun is the chief significator of the illness, something ?vital? must be involved.
If at all choice has to be made between the two doctors you mention, I would say the patient should choose the older of the two (even if the difference be of a year), also the one who is of a darker complexion, more reserved and unruffled, less communicative, ?less attractive? of the two ? in other words, the one who fits the description of Saturn better. For even though Saturn be angular and in the VII, he is essentially dignified by Exaltation, Triplicity and on the verge of entering his own Face. Moreover, he casts no malefic rays unto the Luminaries or to the Ascendant or his Lord. Also, Saturn is the Moon?s dispositor where he rules the XI House.
The Lord of the X, medicine, is also Lord of the Ascendant and placed therein ? ?the patient is her own medicine?. I feel her attitude to things through the time of difficulty, her optimism, belief in herself and in the goodness of all things will help her more than anything else.
With the lord of the Ascendant retrograde and the Sun as ruler of the VI, there are likely to be sudden, unexpected alterations in the patient?s condition and the state of the disease itself.

Best wishes.

Hi Ezra - wow, thanks for your insight!

If at all choice has to be made between the two doctors you mention, I would say the patient should choose the older of the two (even if the difference be of a year), also the one who is of a darker complexion, more reserved and unruffled, less communicative, ?less attractive? of the two ? in other words, the one who fits the description of Saturn better.

That's what I was thinking too, since Saturn is not all together horrible here. He was the doctor I recommended to her, partly because I thought he seemed more "Saturnine" but also because he had the better reviews of the two. I do wonder if he will be a bit cold, terse and not particularly open to what she has to say, but I told her this could happen (expect it might). I just hope she addresses him in a way where he will listen properly (versus telling him everything that ever happened to her - she has this long list of ailments).

But the more I was looking at this chart the more I wondered about the Venus hr, Venus dispositing the disease, Venus retro in the 8th and in detriment... Pisces rising too. I questioned her about meds/alcohol usage, and she's taking an herbal pill that has L-triptophan in it. She admitted to me that she takes 2X the recommended dosage! So I was researching it today and the side effects fit her illness, because it can cause an eosinophil production problem, where it raises them and this causes health issues. I told her to stop taking them immediately and that if her eosinophils are high during her visit (I know they check them because I took hematology in college), then that would be a pretty strong sign that's the issue. It's certainly fitting for the Sun in Libra here, since it's causing heart problems and other issues (it's in the blood and can infiltrate other organs, including the heart, if it's over producing). If that's the case, she could basically cure her own problem. I don't know how long she's been taking them, but they could at least be the cause of the current illness.

So you could be right that she fixes her own problem, basically! I guess we'll see.

The doctor turned out to not be very helpful, so Saturn seems to still fit here. She stopped taking the herbal medicine, and saw some improvement, but she was still having a lot of the same symptoms. She has very low blood pressure (she said she's always had this problem), which the nurse was concerned about, and symptoms of some sort of heart condition (I was told by her and she doesn't know about medical jargon) that causes headaches and low blood pressure. He gave her medication to treat the headaches, but it is known to decrease blood pressure even more (which she found out more about later), and so she has decided not to use the pills rather than risk it.

She is supposed to come in for blood work next, but I don't know if she'll go in.

She said that she has numbness in her limbs also. I think it CLEARLY sounds like she has a deficiency, probably a severe one, that is causing her blood to be thin (iron or B-12 deficiency, etc.). I don't know if that's the only thing wrong with her, but obviously she has the symptoms. I get anemia sometimes too because I am a vegan, but I have never had any problems like she is having. I think she neglects her own health. Severe anemia can certainly cause all of these symptoms and also damages the heart with time.

Tanit,
Thank you for the update.
I honestly think that given your diagnosis, your friend might benefit greatly if she took your advice/suggestion seriously.
Wishing her good health and speedy recovery.

Tanit, sorry to hear your friend did not get help, but sometimes that maybe a sign that she is looking in a wrong place -- perhaps she can find it herself by doing research on her symtoms, or take an alternative route, like chineese or Tibetean medicne. This is not to discount western medicine, just seems like it won't be helpful right now.

BTW, do you take supplements for yourself (like B-12, iron), i'm mostly a vegan (with the exception of rare yogurt and cheese) but i do not feel anemic.

Do you eat brewers yeast and broccoli (sorry to divert the focus of this discussion).

Elumen -

BTW, do you take supplements for yourself (like B-12, iron), i'm mostly a vegan (with the exception of rare yogurt and cheese) but i do not feel anemic.

Do you eat brewers yeast and broccoli (sorry to divert the focus of this discussion).

Yes, I take a vegan supplement that has a substantial amount of B-12 and the recommended amount of iron. I haven't tried Brewer's yeast yet as a supplement or major food source (other than it being in some of the foods I eat), but I hear good things, such as it being an excellent source of B vitamins. There is also a vegan yogurt out there you can buy that is very good. I also eat a lot of leafy greens and have a pretty balanced diet. In my hematology course last yr, the professor told me that vegans pretty much always have a tiny bit of anemia, but that my red blood cell counts, hematocrit and other levels were fine (I brought her a copy of my blood test to make sure I was making sense of it). I get my levels checked once a yr or so, if possible, and I have never had major anemia, just borderline issues or none at all.

For the querent, I was wondering about maybe a condition like heterozygous Thalassemia (beta Thalassemia), which causes an anemia that is not life-threatening, but it is on-going throughout life. They can do a blood test and a hemoglobin electrophoresis to look for a decrease in any of the hemoglobins that might be genetically linked. Sometimes I wish I were a doctor. Doctors might benefit from using decumbiture horary for difficult cases!