An illustration of Bonatti's aptitude is given by the independent Annals of Forli {an ancient town in Southern Italy}, which describes his playing a prominent part in the defence of that town in 1282. At that time, his patron Montefeltro was defending Forli against a large army sent by Pope Martin IV.

This quote from Zoller was earlier evidenced. Forli` is not 'an ancient town in Southern Italy".

She is an ancient city in Northern Italy, in Emilia-Romagna, and is the provincial capital of Forli`-Cesena. Forli` is located at 44.14 N 12.03E on the Via Aemilia.

Guido da Montefeltro took refuge in Forli` in 1257; it was the last stronghold of Ghibelline power in Italy, where he was made 'capitano del popolo'. Bonatti was a native of the city.

Both are mentioned in Dante's Inferno (Bonatti in XX.118 and Montefeltro in XXVII.4 ff). The heading of T.S. Elliot's "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" is taken from the Dantesque passage on Montefeltro.

Forli` was beseiged by the French army of Pope Martin IV (Simon de Brion, former keeper of the great seal and chancellor of France under Louis IX).
I find two dates for this May 1 and May 15 1282.

For the astronomy of Inferno XXVII see Corrado Gizzi, L'astronomia nel poema sacro, Napoli, 1974, v2 p 113-36.

feliciter.
LORENZO SMERILLO

This quote from Zoller was earlier evidenced. Forli` is not 'an ancient town in Southern Italy".

Hello Lorenzo,

Welcome to Skyscript!

Thanks for the correction and the additional historical information. I am sure Robert Zoller intended no offence to the fair inhabitants of Forli. We are all entitled to a little error now and again. The basic astrological reason I highlighted the quote still applies here. In particular Bonatti seemed to be electing the best time for battle.

I was comparing this to sporting events where teams have no choice in when an event takes place. Hence, I was questioning the validity of using Bonatti's method for electing battles with sporting events.

Mark

Mark,

Yes, of course. But a little fact checking is always in order, and this dis-fact hit me in the face, because it rather mis-construes the whole context of what the two Guido were doing and where.

As to your difficulty with baseball, might I suggest that, despite your laudable disinterest in the activity, if such it be, and the unsuccessful results you have in judgements concerning it, might stem from the possibility that it is in fact not a sport?!

However Bonatti does give another consideration on this subject of war/sport, an extrapolation which I can see as valid in that sport is basically a form of military action carried out in pantomime.

After discussing the Ist/7th assignments, he goes on to say:

"However if he [the querent] were an emperor or a potentate or a ruler, and he asked concerning the deeds of the empire or kingdom or city which he ruled, you will give the tenth to him and the fourth to his adversary. But if he asked concerning his own business and something special which does not concern an act of the empire or the kingdom or the city you will give the first to him and seventh to his enemy and you will judge for him in all the other things just as you would with another individual person."
(trans. Zoller, "on War")

Given that real sports teams are representatives (armies) of cities or of nations, it might be acceptable, or at least a case can be made for using this second method (above); which it might be noted is that used for 'occupatio castri' which Bernadette Bardy used in many of her "sport" examples in the article cited earlier in this discussion.

feliciter.
LORENZO SMERILLO

Lorenzo

I read that section about Kings as well and dismissed it in the context of sport. Some particularly national game might well be relevant with that system, such as the Ashes, but even then castle besiegement as a method might well be more effective but similar in outline.

For example, the majority of sporting matches do not concern the nation itself per se, perhaps in the world cup or something similar it might. Instead they concern teams within a country or irrelevant to the country or its reputation, such as Man Utd vs Spurs.

If the reputation or standing of a country was resting upon a sporting match then I do think it might be more relevant to use the 10th house signification.

Paul,

I don't know where you are from, but the concept of 'nation/country' is perhaps anachronistic when reading Bonatti. For him, as still for many Italians still today, the primary identification as to civic loyalty is to one's city -- be that Forli`, Urbino, Firenze, Venezia, Milano, Torino or Napoli. The concept of nation-state is very modern, but a 'national team' would be also acceptable.

I was lead to highlight this technique because Bonatti himself expresses this when he says

'empire or kingdom or city which he ruled'.

Hence a sports team of a city can fall under his definition, don't you think?

feliciter.
LORENZO SMERILLO

"I don't know where you are from"

I'm from Ireland.

"'empire or kingdom or city which he ruled'. "

Perhaps so then. When I read it I didn't take that impression away from it though. If this works for you, then go for it I guess. The 10th will be used anyway though I do not associate it with being relevant because of the idea of a 'king' being involved. I'm still reading through this chapter of Bonatti. If it came across that I was espousing any opinions from a professional or authoritarian position or if that came across I apologise. I'm just a student of astrology here, I wasn't suggesting experthood.
Thanks for your comments.

I only have Bonatti's work on horary to hand but in chapter 26 he lists how the houses are used in questions of war.

"The tenth signifies the habits or acts of the senior commander and the rest of the leaders under his command"

Of course, in those days the commander could be the king.

Regards

Matt

"Of course, in those days the commander could be the king. "

Yeah I'm taking the tenth to be the 'manager' of the team.

My understanding of Bonatti's use of the 10th suggests things like checking the 10th if the war is in the district of the querent and looking to see if he might not lose his own lands and governorship etc. However Bonatti appears to also favour aspects to the luminaries which is what I'm considering as well. He also explicitly states that the winner will be him who has the luminaries on his side of the chart.

Yeah I'm taking the tenth to be the 'manager' of the team.

Thats just what I was thinking

He also explicitly states that the winner will be him who has the luminaries on his side of the chart.

Could be sect condicio related.

Matt

Hello Lorenzo,

Yes, of course. But a little fact checking is always in order, and this dis-fact hit me in the face, because it rather mis-construes the whole context of what the two Guido were doing and where.

Are you suggesting Zoller's reference to the astrologer assisting in the defence of the town of Forli did not refer to Guido Bonatti? From an astrological point of view that is the key issue.

As to your difficulty with baseball, might I suggest that, despite your laudable disinterest in the activity, if such it be, and the unsuccessful results you have in judgements concerning it, might stem from the possibility that it is in fact not a sport?!

I think you are confusing me with someone else here. I never referred to baseball. However, I assume your comment is tongue in cheek. If cricket manages to qualify as a sport baseball surely does too!

However Bonatti does give another consideration on this subject of war/sport, an extrapolation which I can see as valid in that sport is basically a form of military action carried out in pantomime.

Brady and Lehman have certainly argued this and you are perfectly welcome to accept their view if you like. Since there is ultimately no pure method of sports astrology advocated in traditional astrology I think we are all at liberty to explore what methods are most effective.

John Frawley in his entertaining book Sports Astrology is sceptical about using a contest technique to sports as Lee Lehman advocates. Why? Because unlike a battle chart its not clear who the initiator is. How do we assign houses to teams? Surely the event is mutually instigated? So should the visiting team get the 1st house? That technique is useless at International tournaments like the Football/Rugby/Cricket World Cup where usually no side has home advantage. What about the team that wins the toss? I am no sports hand but I seem to recall in cricket the team winning the toss can elect to bat or bowl first. So should we go with the team that kicks off/pitches/bowls? Rather than debate this theoretically I suggest trying it out.

Frawley has his own method which he claims is more effective. In short he assigns the team that is the favourite the 1st and 10th house and the underdog to the 7th and 4th house. Of course sometimes there is no clear favourite. No method is full proof in my opinion. I personaly haven't tested out any technique in sports astrology enough to have any settled view yet.

I would like to make a special appeal that if any of you do find yourself getting sports results right time after time with a chosen technique please post your success on the Sports forum. Christmas is coming and I could do with a bit extra cash.

Mark