I know there is a year old thread on this, but thought it better to begin anew as I have a particular focus on public opinion and methodology;

1) If the rising sign is Leo, and the querent is a woman, do you disqualify her as Venus?

From the previous thread I gathered the sense that most thought that if the querent is Sun and a woman, there is logically no sense in analyzing a Sun-Man Venus-Woman relationship in a horary.

2) If the love chart involves 3 parties, and Leo is rising, would you consider Venus to automatically be the other woman?

Querent inquired about a man who had a girlfriend. So it makes sense for Venus to be another woman since querent's already the Sun.


Thanks for any opinions.

r.a.

Hi R.A.

I just returned from the workshop with Deb and this topic is fresh on my mind. I'm quoting from her presentation which is based on the research of traditional sources and approaches to horary questions about relationship. Deb said that she considers Venus Sun relationship in general to get a sense of which stage the relationship is in. So for example, if Venus is separating from the Sun, it indicates some moving apart, while if Venus is in the cycle of applying to the Sun it is similar to coming back together. however, it is a general signification, to get a sense where the relationship is a whole might be, it does not specifically represent woman and man in question. L1 and L7 are the partners in question and Venus is more often than not the other woman. In other words she does not use them as specific significators for woman and man. So in your question, if Leo is rising and it represents the querent, than she is represented by the Sun, which says something about her nature -- powerful, dignified, or if the Sun does not have much dignity, than perhaps less powerful or able, but still there is something about her nature that is Solar. Venus is likely to represent the other person, if this question involves 3.

My understanding is sort of that the Venus and Sun 'flirt' with one another, one goes ahead, then the other catches up and so on.

In answer to your question though, these secondary significators only offer a particular look at the relationship, Frawley suggests it is more a sexual or 'flirtatious' kind of quality however.
If one of the main significators is the Sun, then my advice would be to focus on those main sigs and not worry too much about the sun and venus.

As for applying signification, generally you want Lord 1 for the querent, and Lord 7 for the querent's "partner" whoever that is. In a question of marriage and a third party, then the married partner gets the 7th house most often. The 5th house might be useful to assign a 'lover' or 'mistress' to and Saturn might be useful to use to assign a 'gilted lover' to, or a cheated on partner.

Ultimately you'll need to know the question inside and out and not be afraid to ask questions to find out everything you can and then assign your significators.

From the previous thread I gathered the sense that most thought that if the querent is Sun and a woman, there is logically no sense in analyzing a Sun-Man Venus-Woman relationship in a horary.

I believe you are referencing my thread, seen here:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5023

1) If the rising sign is Leo, and the querent is a woman, do you disqualify her as Venus?

You will see in the thread, and as Elumen has pointed out, that we normally don't use Venus as a primary significator for a querent/quesited unless it is the actual primary sig (ASC ruler).

2) If the love chart involves 3 parties, and Leo is rising, would you consider Venus to automatically be the other woman?

There have been many threads on 3-party triangles, which I posted links to in another thread here:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5737

Unfortunately, it is not so simple that a female is Venus in a romance chart. Moon is another female planet, and Mercury is ambiguous and can be female when in a female sign/and or with female planets, for example. I would say that the planet which describes the person best and fits into the scheme of the chart best would more likely represent this person. You might even find a very masculine influence for a woman because some women are quite masculine in personality and presence. I look at horary in a similar way to tarot - and both will show significators for people that will be unique for them. Why would all third party women be Venus? I personally know that I am rarely Venus, so if someone were to do a third party horary on me, I would more likely be Mercury or Mars because they are planets that represent me the most, and I can assure I am quite female!

Btw, a tad off topic, but another thing that I don't think we talked about in that thread is the oriental vs. occidental placement of Venus specifically. Obviously Venus prefers being "chased" by the Sun, which is when she is occidental, an accidental dignity for her according to Lilly, and this would be in keeping with her feminine, passive characteristics. Those of us with oriental Venus in natal might not like such a Venus! The oriental type of Venus can have behavior that is less in keeping with Venus' social responsibilities and decorum (you may note that many famous feminists have Venus out of sect/and or oriental). I have a natal Venus oriental, in a masculine sign of Aries (with Mars) and above the earth in a day chart, so Venus is in pretty much every way out of her element, which can certainly help describe the nature of a woman in how she approaches relationships. It's very similar in horary, in my opinion. So I would look at the time of the chart (is it night or day) for sect, as well as oriental vs. occidental placements and all of the usual stuff we look for.

From the previous thread I gathered the sense that most thought that if the querent is Sun and a woman, there is logically no sense in analyzing a Sun-Man Venus-Woman relationship in a horary.

Just as a man can be Venus and it would be difficult to assign Venus as a secondary sig for the woman in the relationship. But, as Elumen also said, it is significant that they are being represented this way (the symbolism of the planet will be connected to the person in the question). And, as always, the planet most connected to the issue might still have a say on its own. When we ask about letters, communication, etc. we tend to look at the state of Mercury, right? When he's retro, combust, ill-dignified, etc., we might expect some trouble there. If we ask about a surgery, we might look at Mars. In matters of love, that is Venus' subject matter and she will always have some sort of say in such a chart.

Hello all and thank you very much for your input. Just to clarify my own methods (I am not a newbie to horary), Venus is always co-ruler of the querent if that; generally I'm pretty strict with 1st/7th lords, almutens and to some extent of experimentation exaltation lords. However, I decided to start experimenting more since after researching I see some 'horarists' are using Venus as a general significator for the female querent in love delineations, and read a quote on Lilly attributing Moon and Venus as significators for a female querent in a love horary. In my experience though, Venus should always be reserved as 'the other woman'; or describing the state of love affairs in general.. i.e.: perhaps a Moon sextile to Venus being some general suggestion that things might end well for a love horary question.

I see people referencing the word "we", but I was asking more along personal point of view, not a "we as astrologers" p.o.v.; since I already know the consensus but also know that some of us have our own individual 'quirks'.. i.e. unique usage (as not all astrologers agree). I ask questions more for discussion value than being educated, but there is no reason for you to assume how much I know since I just joined this forum, which is definitely understandable. Just saying.

Tanit,
Thank you for your long reply. What you said (among other things) about occidental/oriental was an interesting point. I did read your posts before in the other thread where you remarked about the possibility of the man being venusian in temperament and the woman being Mars. Yes there's no reason that's wrong. I am female, and quite martian so I definitely agree with your point via my own experience.

r.a.

Though I know that many would disagree with me here(or not), and granted I did not read the older thread, but I tend to be of the opinion that Venus rules all relationships, in that they are diplomatic affairs between people who are doing business and exchanging things of value. Venus can 'rule' both of the women in a man's life, in this respect. Her placement shows his attitude towards trading with them. If a man is cheating on one, he is actually cheating them both--neither will get much intimacy. He cheats on the one because intimacy there would be appropriate, and he doesn't want to give it; he cheats with the other because he doesn't have to give it. Intimacy matters I put into the 8th House(and Pluto, if you will). Intimacy is a matter of surrender and trust--in an affair whose exposure might betray his otherwise safe and comfortable marriage/relationship, there can be no trust. I digress.
If the rising sign is Leo, then Venus(I use Whole Signs Equal), rules the 3rd House and the 10th. The querent's 'femininity' is shown through her ability to communicate and her social position, or capacity as a responsible person in the query, playing a particular social role or function. Of course, Mercury and Saturn, respectively, rule these things empirically, so they must also be consulted for those considerations. Mars should be looked at as the querent's ability to fight for her interests, and the Sun only modifies this, as the ruler of her first house.
We all want to be the Sun. The Sun is a jealous god. We want to be 'the only one' to have our partner's romantic regard. I have difficulty seeing a truly 'happy' Sun in a love triangle. A person with healthy self-interest(contributed handsomely by a strong Sun) does not need positive regard coming from every corner. He generates that of himself. A compromised Sun is more likely to have an affair, because his ability to provide his own positive regard is compromised, so he needs that fresh energy coming from outside of him, to make him feel more young and passionate. An unhappy Sun would like the idea of two women being in thrall of him. An unhappy Sun is also both of the unhappy women, because they cannot keep the man in court. Again, I digress.
If the querent is the woman in the original question, then the man about whom she is asking, if he is her partner, then he would, of course, go into the 7th House. If they live together, he would also 'go' into the 4th House, and there would be some major connections between those rulers, by essential dignity. The 'other woman' would be an associate, I would put her 'into' the 11th House, and she should be connected to the man, by essential dignity of their rulers, and there would probably also be essential dignity between querent and other woman. I probably would agree with many others in that you have to let the situation guide you. I think a good case is also made by the 1st House being 'the other woman', in that they are rivals(but obviously neither really 'winning'). In reality, all questions center on the querent and his/her needs. The querent and astrologer need to decide which faculty or faculties of being are 'at fault' and find them in the chart, and decide how to remedy them or cope with them.
Now I have either mesmerized you or put you to sleep. You may now wake up and I will sneak back into my corner.

If the querent is the woman in the original question, then the man about whom she is asking, if he is her partner, then he would, of course, go into the 7th House. If they live together, he would also 'go' into the 4th House, and there would be some major connections between those rulers, by essential dignity. The 'other woman' would be an associate, I would put her 'into' the 11th House, and she should be connected to the man, by essential dignity of their rulers, and there would probably also be essential dignity between querent and other woman.

I don't differentiate a marriage partner's rulership from a boyfriend's (they are both 7th house to me), but I know some Vedic horary astrologers do use different house lords for those who you live with (4th, I think?) vs. casual boyfriends (5th house) or marriage partners (7th). Do you use Vedic, or perhaps your system is influenced by it?

Thank you Tanit, I hoped that somehow you would respond as I respect your input.

I have explored Vedic, yes, it is a whole different perspective from Western systems. Yes you might say that the house system I use is influenced by it, but I think the main difference(other than the obvious--ayanamsa, etc) is that Vedic doesn't seem to use house cusps. I use cusps to denote where things are manifesting in consciousness. In Whole Signs Equal, the cusps are placed in the same location, in each successive sign, as the Ascendant, like in Equal Houses, but in Whole Signs, the sign IS the house that that cusp belongs to. Devilishly simple, may seem oversimplistic, but this is the awareness that I am working from at this time.

I basically agree--an affair would obviously be disharmonious with one's home life, so you would look at the 4th House ruler(and the Moon), and see how this harmonizes(or not) with the 5th House ruler. Different relationships will have different co-rulers(as in rulers of other houses), with the 7th being the primary significator of all interactions, or of the person the querent is dealing with 'right now'. Etc, etc.

R.A. just a quick response to your post , no one took your as a "newbie" I think we are all eager to share our understanding, and sometimes it maybe learned rather than gained by experience so it maybe come across as a "teaching" rather than sharing. Anyway, I wanted to add that based on my experience, I only consider L1 and L7 and L5 (for pleasure, romance, love) related, and that's plenty for me! But what I did notice is that if you attribute some significance to a planet -- you can get the correct result by intuitive association. It is like using the symbolism to gain some insight, if your intuition guides you, it may be still helpful and accurate, it happened to me more then once. However, this is more of a intuitive reading than one based on astrological rules. For example I was using derived houses for comparisons and had accurate results (like comparing between jobs, I would use L10, and 10th from the 10th, etc.) now, after reading more about traditional approaches to this types of questions, I do not do this anymore, but intuitively I picked up the correct meanings before even thought the technique is not traditionally verified!