13 by Mark This was part of a composite concept "fitness relative to the lights" (a planet that is visible and direct in motion). Fitness relative to the zodiac includes "being in one's own chariot" which is a separate area and separate consideration. Then there is "fitness relative to the horizon" which is a terrestrial concept: in this case whether the planet is angular succeedent or cadent. In this way the organization looks at planets at the level of the stars/zodiac (primum mobile), at the level of the planets (lights) and then at the level of the earth (sublunary sphere). I was pleased to see this important distinction in Robert Schmidt's translation of Antiochus. I have never been comfortable with the notion that essential dignity can make a planet completely immune from the effects of combustion. To me the two ideas are like apples and pears. For example, the new Moon in Cancer may be in its domicile. However, it also cannot be considered without examining its synodic phase in relation to the Sun. This topic of combustion seems to endlessly fascinate astrologers as it comes up repeatedly here on Skyscript. While its important to acknowledge the hellenistic contribution to the notion of combustion or under the beams there are older Babylonian and Egyptian antecedents for the concept that make it amongst the most ancient in astrology. This point reminds me of a very interesting post made by Deborah Houlding several years ago that still seems highly relevant here: It would be misleading to consider the Greeks as the originators of the concept. The symbolic interpretation that we apply to a combust planet was firmly established in early Babylonian astrology and oriental star lore. It?s probably the oldest and one of the most consistent astrological principles ? that a planet (or star) loses its strength and power as its visibility is lost in the Sun?s light, that it is stripped (and purified) through conjunction with the Sun, and that as it emerges from the conjunction its reappearance symbolises the tentative renewal of vitality and a new cycle of experience. The earliest existing nativity is a Babylonian cuneiform text recording a horoscope drawn on the 29th April 410 BC. This mentions Mercury as invisible because it had ?set?, (ie., entered its heliacal setting, where it cannot be seen by day or night because of its closeness to the Sun). Where planets had set, they were not considered capable of exerting an influence. The Egyptian integration of the symbolic principles of ?combustion? can be identified as early as 1278 BC by reference to an inscription found upon the tomb of Seti I, but it probably extends much further back in history. The inscription, (which states that as a star dies it is purified in the house of Duat, from where, after 70 days of invisibility, it is reborn), was used by Neugebauer (The Exact Sciences in Antiquity), to show that the 70-day ritual used in Egyptian funeral rites was based upon the 70-day period of invisibility that Sirius endured when it ?set? into the Sun. The re-emergence of Sirius coincided with the summer solstice and the annual inundation of the Nile during the period of the development of the calendar, so was used as a signal to start the New Year festivities. The ancient Egyptian astrological perspective differed from that of Hellenistic Greece because by comparison there was much less emphasis upon the planets in favour of the stars and constellations. But the principle of death, weakness, lack of strength and inhibited freedom that is traditionally ascribed through combustion perpetuates a viewpoint that appears to originate from their philosophy. At the moment it looks that way, though earlier undiscovered or unexploited references may well exist elsewhere. Since the use of the symbolic significance of union with the Sun predates the development of the zodiac, there is of course the argument that in its original form ?combustion? derives from observational astrology in which sign cusps play no part. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:01 am
14 by ### If you haven't seen my post at the other current combustion thread ? and these threads will get separated over time ? I'm interested in the idea of the Sun in natal charts being affected by the combust planet and taking on its qualities. That would entail treating combustion as a two-way street and not just dominance by the Sun http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... sc&start=0 I'm thinking more and more that I should have started another thread. Quote Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:50 am
15 by Yukionna Kirk wrote:If you haven't seen my post at the other current combustion thread ? and these threads will get separated over time ? I'm interested in the idea of the Sun in natal charts being affected by the combust planet and taking on its qualities. That would entail treating combustion as a two-way street and not just dominance by the Sun That's a rather interesting point. It appeals to me, as my Sun is weak essentially, and Mars is dripping with dignity. Should be different somehow from a combustion where it's the other way around. Quote Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:03 am
16 by margherita zoidsoft wrote: In this way the organization looks at planets at the level of the stars/zodiac (primum mobile), at the level of the planets (lights) and then at the level of the earth (sublunary sphere). If you are referring to the fact that we did not considerate the position of stars in the houses, yes, obviously I agree there is a difference. More difficult to understand for me what you mean by What is good for the planet is not necessarily good for the native. maybe you could explain better? See Astrojinn in the other twin thread http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 9&start=15 margherita Traditional astrology at http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com Quote Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:50 am
17 by zoidsoft margherita wrote:zoidsoft wrote: In this way the organization looks at planets at the level of the stars/zodiac (primum mobile), at the level of the planets (lights) and then at the level of the earth (sublunary sphere). If you are referring to the fact that we did not considerate the position of stars in the houses, yes, obviously I agree there is a difference. More difficult to understand for me what you mean by What is good for the planet is not necessarily good for the native. maybe you could explain better? See Astrojinn in the other twin thread http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 9&start=15 margherita Some conditions such as found in the PNA speak to the planet's ability to conduct business. Schmidt says that some planets are more able than others (for instance planets in their own places / dignities). Schmidt would limit these to domicile, confine, exaltation depending on the context. Also just because a planet is able to do something doesn't mean that it is going to. Some planets are not as motivated as others (this is where the "goad" concept for the angles comes in). Take for example a musician with great ability, but never gets to play at Carnegie Hall - this would be like a well dignified planet that is not connected to the ascendant, has no connection to hylegical places nor the application of the Moon (such have the potential to turn tyrannical). Conversely, a planet without any dignity whatsoever exactly conjunct an angle and with Fortune and application of the Moon, etc, is much like our former president Bush - in the thick of the business without the ability to show for it. Lastly, there are conditions that let you know whether a planet is for your prosecution or defense so to speak - the benefic / malefic modifications. Sect is one of these conditions as well as placement in certain houses, application and separation of the other planets, etc - for instance, an 8th house Mars can be strong by being in its own places and is moderately motivated because it is being turned toward to an angle ("kentron" in Greek - with the first sense as in being in a "center of activity" as opposed to the goad concept where here it is disconnected from the ascendant), if also contrary to sect, it is very much against the native and seeks to do harm. In a condition such as this, what is good for the planet is bad for the native. It would be better if such a planet had less power or was hindered in some other way. In some cases, cadency is one way for a planet that would do harm to the native to be redirected away from the native. Also, Valens says that the chart support (trigon lords, etc) will tell you which direction the benefic / malefic modifications will go; for eminent nativities bring down those around the native before it brings down the native (such as Nixon / Watergate, Hitler, Al Capone, Reverend Jim Jones, etc). Curtis Manwaring Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC Quote Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:54 pm
18 by margherita zoidsoft wrote: Conversely, a planet without any dignity whatsoever exactly conjunct an angle and with Fortune and application of the Moon, etc, is much like our former president Bush - in the thick of the business without the ability to show for it. Nice example Thanks for the more detailed explanation. I'd like very much to see some complete reading about one of Schmidt student. margherita Traditional astrology at http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com Quote Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:00 am
19 by Olivia zoidsoft wrote: Conversely, a planet without any dignity whatsoever exactly conjunct an angle and with Fortune and application of the Moon, etc, is much like our former president Bush - in the thick of the business without the ability to show for it. Whilst I'd hate to supply examples here, I've seen this in the charts of so many talentless musicians, actors, and writers who do make it to public notice it's not even funny. I realise the implications are more serious when it's a politician, but the infamous phrase 'Nobody has ever gone broke underestimating the tastes of the American public' springs to mind almost instantly here. Was it Barnum who said that? It does not apply just to the United States, but that was the quote. I've also seen charts like this with mitigation - usually through a connection with the Moon or by a generosity (not sure the Greeks used that), but something like Venus angular in Aries in generosity with Mars in Pisces - and the person is quite talented. Quote Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:56 am
20 by zoidsoft Olivia wrote:Whilst I'd hate to supply examples here, I've seen this in the charts of so many talentless musicians, actors, and writers who do make it to public notice it's not even funny. Like on American Idol? (the show is in Vegas BTW). There's a saying in Vegas - it's not what you know, but who you know. These people open the doors to the kentra (circles of activity) by invitation so all you have to do is be liked and be lucky enough to schmooze your way in (angular Moon/fortune and a touch of Venus), but without this you're cadent. In the past, I've wondered why my software hasn't taken off... At this point it's getting as strong in the basics as the ubiquitous Solar Fire. I've noticed something else as well. When I was first getting started and my programs were pretty amaturish, I was getting all sorts of complements on my work. Now the work is far advanced and all I seem to get are complaints about the smallest of details. Just the other day I saw an old cracked version of Timaeus (verison 5 from 2004) in Arabic: http://www.alchamel.org/vb/showthread.php?t=4699 This guy is getting all sorts of complements on what is mostly my work (and some of his). When cracking software, it only takes a few hours to find the memory points to insert substitution code and generate a new release. This is a little more advanced than that though because the program is now completely Arabic. His chart is in the program as well (Khalid) and I noticed that he's in a peak period for ZR (zodiacal releasing) from the lot of spirit. However, the program really has a lot of problems with it now because of the crack (the chart displays are missing the Capricorn glyph and have these ugly scroll bars that won't go away, etc.) But it is probably more useful to you if you know Arabic and don't speak English - therefore it's not what you know, but who you know (culture in this case). Schmidt told me that in Greek composition, the most important part is usually found in the middle. This is symbolic of the kentron (the center of activity around which everything revolves). Take the Chaldean order of the planets Saturn - Moon. The Sun is in the middle. The angles in traditional astrology are really flanked by (for instance the 10th) by a cadent sign (9th) and a succeedent sign (11th). Again the principle of the center... Also from the Antiochus definitions of which there are 29, definition 15 is in the middle. For those who are not familiar, this definition has to do with heliacal rising and setting. Highway 15 goes through the middle of Vegas, but you cannot look directly at the middle without going blind; this is the nature of the occult. Curtis Manwaring Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC Quote Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:26 pm
21 by Clelia Romano Schmidt told me that in Greek composition, the most important part is usually found in the middle. This is symbolic of the kentron (the center of activity around which everything revolves). Take the Chaldean order of the planets Saturn - Moon. The Sun is in the middle. The angles in traditional astrology are really flanked by (for instance the 10th) by a cadent sign (9th) and a succeedent sign (11th). Again the principle of the center... Also from the Antiochus definitions of which there are 29, definition 15 is in the middle. For those who are not familiar, this definition has to do with heliacal rising and setting. Highway 15 goes through the middle of Vegas, but you cannot look directly at the middle without going blind; this is the nature of the occult Curt: You was really inspired when writing this post! I quoted only part of it, but i liked it all. Congratulations! best Cl?lia http://www.astrologiahumana.com Quote Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:45 am
22 by zoidsoft Clelia Romano wrote:Schmidt told me that in Greek composition, the most important part is usually found in the middle. This is symbolic of the kentron (the center of activity around which everything revolves). Take the Chaldean order of the planets Saturn - Moon. The Sun is in the middle. The angles in traditional astrology are really flanked by (for instance the 10th) by a cadent sign (9th) and a succeedent sign (11th). Again the principle of the center... Also from the Antiochus definitions of which there are 29, definition 15 is in the middle. For those who are not familiar, this definition has to do with heliacal rising and setting. Highway 15 goes through the middle of Vegas, but you cannot look directly at the middle without going blind; this is the nature of the occult Curt: You was really inspired when writing this post! I quoted only part of it, but i liked it all. Congratulations! best Cl?lia Thanks! If you like that, this was written in the same way with much more depth: http://www.astrology-x-files.com/sitemap.html Pay very careful attention to that page because there is far more hidden there than meets the eye (the same is true on the header graphics to all the pages on the site). Over 99.9% are probably too hurried to see the true significance of all of it and there are things that you won't think to do if you are not technically inclined that reveal the mysteries. Curtis Manwaring Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC Quote Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:19 am
23 by Clelia Romano [Thanks! If you like that, this was written in the same way with much more depth: http://www.astrology-x-files.com/sitemap.html Pay very careful attention to that page because there is far more hidden there than meets the eye (the same is true on the header graphics to all the pages on the site). Over 99.9% are probably too hurried to see the true significance of all of it and there are things that you won't think to do if you are not technically inclined that reveal the mysteries. Curt, your site is really much better now. I ever imagined why you had designed a site so robotic as your last one, no offense. The new ( I had already visited it some time ago) is really misterious and very well done. Besides being an astrologer you are certainly a vanguard artist and a very sensitive person. best wishes Cl?lia http://www.astrologiahumana.com Quote Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:38 pm
24 by petosiris ". . . To sum up, however, it should be stated, that nearness to the Sun is harmful to all planets. Certain astrologers, however, claim that Mars is favourable when setting, when he is overwhelmed by the rays of the Sun, for in being subservient to the Sun he loses his natural malefic qualities." Firmicus Maternus, Mathesos , Liber Secundus VIII, Matutine and Vespertine Positions, 2. Mars is drying and burning (excessive heat). From evening station to setting (and presumably under the rays), it is more cooling, which should make it just heating (which is a beneficent quality) according to Tetrabiblos 1.8... Setting is also sometimes used to refer for every evening position in some authors, if I remember correctly. I wonder if the Arabic preference of occidental Mars is based on this. Quote Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:59 pm