An interesting article on how Arabic star names became adopted in the west:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/2 ... he.sky.htm

Mark

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They sound better in Arabic than that Alpha Centauri business.

I am told that modern written Arabic is much the same as old Arabic, in distinction to say, Greek or Hebrew which are different in their modern forms so it should be relatively easy to learn and start reading astrology, how-to manuals on turning lead into gold, spells for ridding your house of scorpions, herbal medicine and all that stuff

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See- even I can do it.

Matt

Matt wrote:
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Thats easy for you to say.

All I can reply to that is ??? ??? ???? ????? ???????

Mark

That's a really good article. Over the last couple of years I've been making the case that we should stop relying on these Arabian names that don't really 'speak' to us, and develop the habit of describing the stars like english-speaking Renaissance astrologers (such as William Ramesey) did: "the third star of the mourners" or "the sting of the arrow" ... "the horn of the bull" and so on.

That's what the Arabian astronomer/astrologers did - they named the stars descriptively, in their own language, so that they could remember their meaning easily. They didn't list them under older but foreign Greek names (which were also describing body parts and constellation imagery placements). By retaining names that most of us can't even pronounce or spell, we make it many times more difficult to get to know and understand the symbolism that originates the historically reported star meanings.

Or I guess we could bite the bullet and take the trouble to learn more about Arab cultural astronomy in its own context.

Also, we need to consider who is implied in a statement like, "we should stop relying on these Arabian names that don't really 'speak' to us, and develop the habit of describing the stars like english-speaking Renaissance astrologers (such as William Ramesey) did..."

It implies that the reader is English, or at least anglophone.

I don't mean to sound deterministic, but I am impressed by those old Arab star-gazers, because they really had the climate to observe the heavens in detail, unlike northern Europeans with their frequent cloudy nights. The old Arab star-names are so evocative of their culture and environmental setting.

It implies that the reader is English, or at least anglophone.

- the fact that I am writing in English implies that the reader I have in mind is an astrologer who mainly reads and writes in English. Did I really need to explain that ? The obvious extension of my point is that French astroloogers should use French descriptive names, and Arabian astrologers should continue to refer to star names in the language which brings their astronomical position and astrological meaning to mind.

BTW, the word 'anglophobe' means someone who hates/fears England or its people, but I'm sure you know I wasn't addressing such a person.

Percentage wise, as an English-speaking astrologer, I would come high in terms of the time I have and will spend learning about Arabian cultural astronomy, so I know that's irrelevant to my point. Unless I also become fluent in Arabic, there is always going to be a point at which the 'old Arab star name' gets translated in my head to something equivalent in my own language which acts as the hook for my astrological understanding - so that I recall, for example, that Zubenelschemali is the star that I would call the Northern Scale. The small minority of English speaking astrologers who also know Arabic can ignore my post because they have the problem covered.

To spell it out, a practising astrologer needs to not only know, but also understand, the meaning of the star names they are using.

Hello Deborah, Mark (but where you were?) and all

Deb wrote: To spell it out, a practising astrologer needs to not only know, but also understand, the meaning of the star names they are using.

for me, I told many times I tend to use the stars which have a tradition in stellar catalogues.

Whatever name they use, Arab or Ptolemy one, astrologers mentioned specific characters just to a few stars.

They are so standard that are repeated in every catalogue from Middle Ages to Renaissance to early modern times like Lilly.
Of the other stars we can say very little more than their nature, I don't like very much to use other than adding some planetary nuance.

margherita

BTW, the word 'anglophobe' means someone who hates/fears England or its people, but I'm sure you know I wasn't addressing such a person.

Hmmm, unless I miss something, he said "anglophone" not "anglophobe"

So he did - sorry about that (I didn't even know there was such a word).

Deb wrote:

That's a really good article. Over the last couple of years I've been making the case that we should stop relying on these Arabian names that don't really 'speak' to us, and develop the habit of describing the stars like english-speaking Renaissance astrologers (such as William Ramesey) did: "the third star of the mourners" or "the sting of the arrow" ... "the horn of the bull" and so on.

That's what the Arabian astronomer/astrologers did - they named the stars descriptively, in their own language, so that they could remember their meaning easily. They didn't list them under older but foreign Greek names (which were also describing body parts and constellation imagery placements). By retaining names that most of us can't even pronounce or spell, we make it many times more difficult to get to know and understand the symbolism that originates the historically reported star meanings.

Historically, Deb has a strong case. The Greeks for example had relatively few names for specific stars other than their position in a constellation. From a practical astrological point of view describing stars by location is a lot more useful than knowing their Arabic title. The location of a star frequently tells us a lot about their astrological meaning. For example Algol 'the demon star' as the head of the Gorgon or Medusa or Antares as 'the heart of the Scorpion'. Still, there is another side of me that rather likes the sound of the Arabic names for the stars. To me there is something magical and awe inspiring at looking up at the heavens to the stars above. Personally, I feel using names derived from another culture adds to their allure and mystery. Just sticking to constellational positions seems a bit over functional. Plus star lore is not restricted to the constellational myths of the Greeks and Romans. Its useful to have titles that describe them differently. For example in ancient astrology there was the 'Sphaera Barbarica' which retained elements of Egyptian and Babylonian star lore with different constellational images. So I suppose I like both approaches. For example, 'Rigel Kentaurus' means 'The Centaur's Foot'. I think its important to know this star's location and how it relates to the myth of Chiron. I always tell groups I speak to on fixed stars that 'the real Chiron' can be seen by the naked eye and was placed there by Zeus himself! Still I like the exotic title too. I also think the modern Bayer system has its uses too in focusing on the magnitude of stars as this was a traditional consideration in their importance.

Moreover, if we are being totally consistent here why stop at fixed stars? If demystifying astrology is our guiding principle we could adopt common English terms for many familiar astrological terms described in Arabic and Latin. I believe Robert Schmidt has renamed the zodiac signs directly from Greek into English rather than using their more familiar Latin terms. Hence Aries is simply 'The Ram' and Taurus 'The Bull'. Personally, the romantic in me likes the link to history and connection that gives us to our predecessors.

I am not a Roman Catholic but this discussion rather reminds of the discussion in that faith community whether the liturgy is better in Latin or the venacular of each country.

Mark

Mark wrote:. So I suppose I like both approaches. For example, 'Rigel Kentaurus' means 'The Centaur's Foot'. I think its important to know this star's location and how it relates to the myth of Chiron as the wounded healer.

Still we don't have anything in the tradition about this.
This is Anonymous 379 for the star you mention (together with the star at the end of the River):

" Both of them have the temperament and nature of Jupiter and of Venus and if they rise at the moment of birth they make the natives become pure and honest, nice, agreeable and pleasing, fond of music, fond of their friends and friendly, pious, liberal, generous and munificent, wise and sensible, fond of listening to other people. These people are men of good judgement and give good advice, they have a noble and majestic mind, a kind heart, they are people of good feelings, self-possessed and moderate in the pleasures of love and they are greatly favoured by women. They also look for renown and they are honest and virtuous, their hair is on the blond side and they are good-looking and a delicate and frail body especially if these stars observe the Moon. "


no mention to whatever wounded healer (this is one of the most funny items of modern astrology).
If we create a story about it, it is not so traditional astrology in my way of thinking-

I believe Robert Schmidt has renamed the zodiac signs directly from Greek into English rather than using their Latin terms. Hence Aries is simply The Ram and Taurus the Bull.

This is because you are English mother tongue, in Italian as in French (I believe) we don't use Latin names, for us the Taurus is already a Bull and the Virgo a Virgin- Schmidt is not so exotic for us.

margherita

no mention to whatever wounded healer (this is one of the most funny items of modern astrology).If we create a story about it, it is not so traditional astrology in my way of thinking-

Although I am not against seeing some mythology to understand some stars (for instance Algol compared with Perseus myth) I agree with Marguerita that this is a dangerous game. For instance this "wounded healer" story is very deep on modern astrology but has little resonance with the myth of Quiron. Quiron was the great teacher of all the mythological heroes but nobody talks about the "wounded teacher".

I think astrologers used the "mythology book for astrologers" that must be in the same shelves as "history of the world for astrologers" :-P

Assuming that astrologers are going to bother to really read the myths, there is also of course the problem of multiplicity of myths in the greek culture (assuming that their myths are some kind of universal reference to western astrology, and not egyptian or babylonian myths, for example)