Does anyone have information on the Chaldean terms, as given on this blog:

http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/20 ... or-bounds/

A quick Google search didn't give me much, and I'm curious as to who "invented" them, who used them, any references in ancient texts, etc. Thanks.

The "Chaldean" table of terms is one of the three methods that Ptolemy refers to, the others being the "Egyptian" method, apparently stemming back to Nechepso (Porphyry 41), and the method which Ptolemy says to have found on an ancient parchment, also known as the "Ptolemy" method.

The only other author I know who alludes to this method is Vettius Valens. He refers to this system twice, in one case (III 6) expressing his misbelief in it and suggesting his own more rational method, and in the other case (IV 29, missing in Schmidt's translation) apparently quoting a certain Hermias who used this system in circumambulation. This Hermias is speculated to be either an early author or a 5th century philosopher (although Valens had lived in the 2nd century, the Anthologies was put together finally in the late 5th century) or Trismegistus "himself". As no other sources exist, none of the identifications are conclusive.

All I can infer from these data is that the "Chaldean" system may have been an early competitor of the "Egyptian" method which fell out of favour and became obsolete, probably due to the latter's authority and logic. Thus the later references are all based on the account of Ptolemy.

levente_laszlo (osthanes) wrote: ... and in the other case (IV 29, missing in Schmidt's translation) apparently quoting a certain Hermias who used this system in circumambulation.

Are you talking about the bracketed section right at the beginning of sentence 9? Why is that bracketed?

Hi Chris,

well, yes, but I've no idea. Perhaps Pingree took it as an interpolation. The Kroll edition (p. 205, 10) doesn't seclude the Greek numerals. (I'm not having Pingree's edition at hands, I checked it only in the library but missed to make a copy. So if you have it, I would be pleased if you uploaded a scan about the relevant sentence.) The sentence itself seems to be somewhat garbled and Kroll suspects some omissions as he asterisked it. Anyway, the MS itself would read something like this (with an addition of mine in brackets):

"If you would make a circumambulation, use the confines as 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, even if [you observe?] either the year from the Sun or the month from the Sun in transit to the Moon in the nativity and in the same way from the Hour-Marker of the years, or as I myself, Hermias, observed."

Note that the text is transmitted in only one MS, Oxoniensis Seldeianus 22 of the 16th century (where the word horiois is misspelled with an omega), thus it can't be counter-checked. But even so I don't see any reason to translate it "seasonal times" as Schmidt does. It must be a reference to the confines, moreover, this makes it understandable why Valens put forth his objections against this system in III 6.

Very interesting. Here is the passage from Pingree:

Wow, thanks! Now I can see what to see.

First, he corrected the MS h?r?ois to h?ria?ois 'hourly' (plural dative), while Kroll simply replaced the omega, thus producing hor?ois 'confine' (plural dative). The adjective h?ria?os is fairly ubiquitous in Valens, however.

Second, as a reference to confines was dropped, the Greek numerals had to be secluded as interpolation. Perhaps he thought either a copyist had inserted them from III 6 or a marginal gloss had slipped into the text (the latter may be the case in line 18 where ?phesis 'releasing' stands as if it were a gloss for per?patos 'circumambulation').

Third, t?n eniaut?n 'the year' (plural genitive) was emended to to? eniauto? (singular genitive) to better suit to the expression. But even with these corrections the sentence looks awkward:

"If you would make a circumambulation, use the hourly intervals, such as if [you observe?] either the year from the Sun or the month from the Sun in transit to the Moon in the nativity and in the same way from the Hour-Marker of the year, or as I myself, Hermias, observed."

While the third correction seems reasonable, I really wonder if the first two ones can be justified. Perhaps investigating the technique itself, compared to the similar procedures of Nechepso (as reported in V 4), and textual occurrences of h?ria?os can help to solve the problem.

I can't add much to what's been said already about who invented them but thought I would point out that the logic of the Chaldean system is explained in this 3 MB file on Ptolemy's terms, on pages 17-21.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/terms.html

Because their logic is quite simple, but relevant to the logic in the other systems of terms, I think that the best way to start understanding the composition of any term table is to begin with that of the Chaldean system. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any known example of this system of terms in practical application.

Deb