Hi,

Tanit, thank you for the valuable quotes.

I think this case is discussed in detail in Lilly's Christian Astrology pages 173-176. We still have to decide if the client is an ordinary client (p 173 "If the querent should obtaine...") signified by Saturn that afflicts the 2nd house, or is "the king or nobleman" from page 174 ("If one shall aquire that Gaine...") "who pay debts very slowly, and on whome the law takes little notice" (CA 174).

In the first case, Jupiter signifies the money owed to the querent, and so we find on page 176 ("Of the time whan the aforesaid accidents..."):

Some of the ancients have said, that if at the hour of the question the planet which signifies the perfection of the thing demanded be in one sign with the lord of the ascendant, the matter shall than be brought to conclusion when the planet and the lord of the ascendant come to corporal conjunction in degrees and minutes,if the lord of the ascendant be the more ponderous...but if the lord of the asc be the more light planet so that he makes haste to the conjunction of the planet signifying the effecting of the matter, and that planet receives the lord of the asc, the matter will be finished...

Here Moon lord Asc applies to conjoin Jupiter lord 8th in Jupiter's domicile in the 8th, so the matter "is finished".

I'm not sure if this means that the money was already sent or desposited , or will be in a day or so. What does "Matter FINISHED" mean here?

In the second case, where the client is lord 10th and Mercury signifies the money, then according to CA176 (Moon succedent, Mercury Angular) querent will get the money in two months or so, as already said by other members.

I guess the so called "controversy" is about whether Mercury or Jupiter signify the money. I'll put my bet on Jupiter because:
1. Late Asc suggests "matter is finished", too.
2. Saturn lord 7th is the one afflicting the 2nd.
3. Moon lord Asc is in the 8th and received by Jupiter, while being in Mercury's detriiment and fall.

Then again, I could be wrong, since POF is disposited by Mercury, and Moon has a few other planets (obstacles or stages) to run into before meeting with Jupiter.

I guess the so called "controversy" ...

Perhaps I should clarify that my reference to "some little areas of controversy" was mainly realising that the ascendant is so late, that's all. Otherwise, there is nothing in this chart that is designed to trip anybody up.

Deb

As a beginner I am posting this without reading earlier postings - I find the detail and expertise daunting. So apologies if I am going back over old ground ? and thank you Paulo for encouraging beginners.

Cancer ASC at 29.28 is very late - indicating it could be too late to judge the issue, however it could indicate that an end or change is about to happen. Saturn retro in 2nd shows her financial worries.

Mars cjn Asc shows the querant is either angry or impatient and wants to assert herself. Mars also indicates haste and impatience ? has she been too hasty/aggressive as there is a separating sq between Mercury and Mars? And with Lord of 1st in Pisces, perhaps also idealistic, not realising how slow and bureaucratically local governments can be. With Moon, Lord of 1st in 8th ? there is certainly a danger that she could lose the money, especially as Jupiter, Lord of 8 is stronger than Mercury Lord of 2nd.

However the Moon is separating from a sq to Mercury and Venus, perhaps showing past difficulties, and is moving slowly towards a cjn with Jupiter, Lord of 8th - the debt, as well as applying by sextile to Mercury and then Venus (would form a minor grand trine if you were to include Pluto)

Venus is also angular in 10th suggesting a beneficial outcome/judgement ? and is strong in the chart. Mercury, Lord of 2nd is in Taurus (ruled by Venus) & is also within 5 deg of 10th hse cusp, which could also suggest wealth.

Moon in Pisces/8th is mute, there may have been some confusion or lack of clarity, maybe in her haste she overlooked something, or something got lost. Is there some form of deception going on?

Unfortunately I do not have the horary expertise to work out timings, but a suceedent Moon suggests it will take time to sort out, and the applying sextiles to Mercury and Venus suggest that in order to get the money and improve her finances it may take time, effort and diligence.

As I am so late in the game I have not read all comments.


Late degrees with mars on the ascendent is worrying. Client might be asking the wrong question, maybe she already knows the result and is just showing childish impatient. Maybe she already spent the money before getting it :-)

Saturn in the second house closely aspects the ASC. She is feeling the cold hug of the great malefic on her finances and is feeling some despair and contriction.

Moon in the 8th house of money from the other party is a good sign. The first aspect is with mercury, but this aspect shows little promise.

Maybe this shows a reunion with them, a lawyer involved, discussions etc.

The aspect with venus is much more interesting. Venus in taurus, strongly angular, rules government and receives the moon in the 8th!

Timing is strongly dependent on the context of situation. As moon is in a common sign I would guess something between 5-8 time units (weeks? months?)

best regards

Hi Yuzuru

I'm curious why you feel that the Moon's next contact to Mercury is an aspect which offers little promise, given that Mercury is the querent's 2nd house ruler - why are you inclined to overlook that?

Deb

Dear Deb,

I feel compelled to agree with Yuzuru.

I cannot regard the Moon?s impending aspects with too great an optimism because she separates from none. This would mean she was void of course at the moment of the question being asked. Given this and the fact that she is peregrine and rather slow, I also find it difficult to think that her being located in the 8th is itself a sign of promise. It does, however, highlight the nature of the Querent?s concern.

Mercury will be unable to perfect her conjunction with Venus; she is slowing down and will be left behind by Venus. Again, I think, Mercury?s Retrogradation would have been a very important factor had it happened soon enough. But there is a whole week to go before that happens. By slowing down, she is encouraging the perfection of the sextile with the Moon, but then this aspect does not say much to me with a void of course Moon.

As the Moon is in the 8th from the 1st, so is Mercury in the 8th from the 2nd and Saturn in the 8th from the 7th. The planets are all concentrated in the 8th and the 9th Houses neither of which can be regarded as naturally powerful. 9th is a ?good House? but none the less cadent.

I also find it difficult to ignore the fact that as the Ascendant is about to change, the Moon is also predominantly ruler of the 12th House. With the Moon the ruler of the 12th as well as the 1st and located in the 8th, I feel the Querent is somehow her own enemy and is at fault. Perhaps the Moon?s House position is telling her to let go of the past and move on with life. And to me, this interpretation is supported by the fact that the Moon separates from no planet ? there is nothing to see in the past and she should turn her face to the future.

Venus strongly posited almost on the cusp of the Midheaven is surely a happy sign. She is thus also the most powerfully placed planet in the chart. But then she does not of her own rule any of the Houses that have important significations in this question. She rules the 10th and the 3rd.

Mars, peregrine and in the Term of Saturn, while being descriptive of the mind and person of the Querent, is also the ruler of the 4th, the outcome and end of things. If Mercury were not slowing down, she would not have to repeat a square with the fiery planet, which is moving ahead in Leo.

I see a glimmer of hope in the chart but not certain promise. The Querent might apply for and be assisted through the counsel of a female acquaintance or a sibling who holds a position of authority or administrative power. But there is most likely a long and trying wait in store for her.

Saturn, to my mind, does play an important role in this question about the Querent?s money. I think that only after Saturn turns direct and enters Libra, which happens at the end of July, the Querent might hope to achieve what she desires. The Moon is 2 degrees 20 minutes away from her perfect sextile with Mercury and 4 degrees 54 minutes away from her next sextile with Venus. The sum of these two is 7 degrees 14 minutes and its mean 3 degrees 37 minutes. That gives us a period of 3 and-a-half months, which is the end of July. At the end of July, Mercury will enter Virgo and come to the cusp of the 2nd House in this figure. And yet, it is just at that time that Jupiter turns Retrograde.

If I had to say anything to the Querent, I would have said that she should do what was within her powers, seek the help of a woman acquaintance or relative who might hold a position of power, but keep her hopes low. Moreover, she should ensure that her present and future professional contracts do not suffer on account of this past trouble which yet remains unresolved. I would also have said that she should be prepared to wait for another three months or so. But if by the end of July she still saw no ray of hope, she should write the due payment off as bad debt and forget about it, make it part of her past, reminding herself that God?s ways are strange but always much wiser than those of humans.

Thanks.

I'm curious why you feel that the Moon's next contact to Mercury is an aspect which offers little promise, given that Mercury is the querent's 2nd house ruler - why are you inclined to overlook that?

I hope your are not giving the answer

I don?t find that contact with the ruler of the money of the client is a reliable indicator. The same happens with contacts between the ruler of first and seven house for money matters.

Besides the aspect coming from the house of mercury?s fall, acc to Sahl, shows little promise.

Hi All, when do we get to learn the outcome of this chart? It does not seem to me that this chart is overly complex, and I am looking forward to learning the outcome ....

Ezra said:

But then she does not of her own rule any of the Houses that have important significations in this question. She rules the 10th and the 3rd.

I really think it's the ads involved, at least partly, meaning they were good work and should bring a reward in the end.

PFN - Sorry, this is just a side issue, and probably not important, but I am wondering if the ads are creative in nature? In other words, do they require graphics and pictures, etc.? That's why I thought Venus seemed descriptive of that, a public graphic ad, but I could be wrong, since Mercury is a natural sig for published documents (the 3rd being such subject matter in general also). Mercury also lords over money, according to Lilly.

Sorry Elumin - I put the date on the other site but forgot to include it here. The answer will be revealed on 22nd November, as part of the next batch of site updates.

Hi Yuzuru, thanks for adding a bit extra. I just thought that your comment "The first aspect is with mercury, but this aspect shows little promise" needed some explanation because it wasn't obvious why you said that.

Deb

Hi Tanit. To be frank, I do not know how the ad's were, cause I have never seen them or had them explained. But it is likely to be as you said, a piece of communication and art at the same time. So either Mercury or Venus are descriptive, or maybe both.

Anyway, I should comment that the discussion is turning to be very interesting. Several issues presented were considered by myself when I judged this chart, but I am not free to say much before the result is published. So, I'm looking foward to it

Tanit,
your remark about the ads is very astute.