Hi Paulo

I just want to let you and the others know that I've uploaded the full judgement on the chart.

To go to the chart page with both downloads: http://horary.co/charts/payment1.html

Or just download the PDF file with the full details on this link:
http://horary.co/pdf/payment_full.pdf

I think this is a very interesting chart, even though I also think it is beautifully clear in its symbolism too. I would say that most of us underestimated the timing - do we put this down to the lateness of the ascendant, do you think? I'd be really interested to know too, whether you feel that late ascendant had more to say than the fact that the querent was asking this question at the end of her dilemma? It doesn't sound like it in the printed judgement but I have always found late ascendants to indicate a reason why it's time for the querent to just 'move on' and stop being so emotionally connected to the issue they are asking about (or something like that). Any thoughts on that?

So now you are released to speak freely about your chart ...

Thank you!

Deb

Hi Deb and all,

All is well that ends well! Actually, I thought that the late asc. is indicative that the situation is about to change, for the better, because of the beneficial aspects of the Moon. In my interpretation, I estimated that it would take 2 weeks, I considered the first aspect of the Moon to Mercury significant, although I can see why the perfection of the Moon to Venus and later to Jupiter would matter more! I had a situation once, that a pregnant friend ready to give birth and suffering from discomforts of pregnancy had asked me when the labor would start. i looked at the chart and the Moon was applying to L5 in about 7* but L5 was conjunct another planet, and the Moon would first conj. that other planet in 2*. I told my friend that within a week she would give birth, but her labor started in 2 days. From that I concluded that the first aspect that the Moon makes was very significant. And there were no interventions in her labor, it started on its own.

Anyway, for me timing is difficult. I could sense in this chart the "speediness" of the resolution, but what about predictions that Lilly made about lifetime events, such as when a client asked him when in his life he is to be successful and when in danger. Or when someone asks a "will I ever..." question. Can we estimate "ever" as a lifetime or we only look into the immediate future.

I'd love a more thorough discussion on the timing!

elumen

Hi Deb and everyone,

To answer your question, when I looked this chart in retrospect, I was actually surprised to how clear it was. And yes, the timing, in my opinion, benefits from the late Ascendant. But first and foremost, the matter boils down to the stage it is in, and that is only accessible through the information the querent provided. She said "that they had not accepted her invoice, so she had to send a new one". This tell us that the matter is far progressed. So, the question is, will she still have further troubles? Will there be any more delays? The chart, with it's late Ascendant, is saying that her questioning about it is not very usefull, because the matter is already in it's last stages, about to take a turn, and should probably be droped. She probably knew it, because sending an invoice is the last step before receiving payment (so, she probably was not so doubtfull as she wanted to seem, as the Saturn hour disagreement points, but still Mars showing her need to vent a bit). So, all I had to look for is aspects. If I got a void of course Moon, that would probably say; "delay with added inaction". If a negative aspect, that would say: "prohibition". But the series of positive aspects pointed to the solving of the matter.

So, the matter was ongoing since january. With the AC in the last degrees of the rising sign, and with such close aspects, 4 months later after it's progression, it seemed reasonable to calculate the time in days (But I've already seen cardinal signs rising to questions that take years to solve). I did not use Mercury because two days for 2? seemed too short a time, and the same doubts that Yuzuru had about Mercury I had as well (Moon in Pisces, a place inimical to Mercury, to top that he was too slow, almost going retrograde). But I did see the possibility of judging the chart in a two folded way (8th and 11th houses) as mentioned in the judgement.

Above all, I felt confident in the Jupiter aspect, even more so than the one to Venus. That is throughly explained in the judgement. So, yes, I feel that the late Ascendant works as a warning, but most importantly, it is informative, like any consideration ultimately should be. Since the matter was not overly complicated, we can understand a lot of it's meaning here, but that is not as easy most of the time.

Well, that's about it. I thank everyone who participated, and will gladly answer any further doubts, now that the judgement has been published. I also would like to congratulate, especially, Tanit, Paul and Elumen. Tanit and Paul grasped the chart right away, and they got the right answer. And Elumen not only got the answer, but a correct timing as well. She saw the aspect to Mercury by 2? as representative of 2 weeks, and despite the payment having been effected 10 days after the question, 14 days is still a prospect very close to what actually happened.

Paulo

Thanks for this great feedback! Really interesting look back on this.
I find timing very 'nebulous', it seems (to me) to be quite difficult to pin down. Like elumen I thought that it would be about two weeks (cos of the Moon Mercury sextile), but I see that in your interpretation you mentioned the perfection of the Moon's aspect to Jupiter.
I just wanted to ask why you chose Jupiter in particular. Is it just because it is a dignified and angular benefic which receives the moon? Reason I'm asking is that I had wondered whether to use Lord 10 or Lord 7 as the 'client'. In simple 'buy and sell' kind of work you might use Lord 7 as the client and therefore Lord 8 as their money. Can't help but notice that obviously in this chart we have Moon perfecting an aspect with Lord 8 and that this perfection even accounts for an accurate time. It's also very interesting of course that the real time conjunction of Venus and Mercury occurred at this time too.

This was a great chart, thank you for sharing, PFN!

It does seem like cardinal rising tends to speed things up, and I was really internally conflicted on timing!

Anthony Louis mentions in his horary textbook that mixed angles can show things beginning and ending differently, where if cardinal rising things begin very unsteadily, but with opposite angles fixed they would conclude more stably, perhaps more satisfactorily (especially with Venus fixed and well placed on the MC). The hr disagreement seemed to suggest the same - that it might be at an unexpected but perhaps more favorable outcome.

This has been a really interesting example.

I see the late ASC really did show that the matter had most probably been decided at the time the question was asked.

About timing - I know there are various indicators within the chart that suggest the speed of an outcome. But can people advise on what they find useful as specific indicators - or should one just use the distance between the relevant applying aspects, as Paulo demonstrated in this example?

About timing I think the most important factor would be an extremely angular venus.

I almost talked about in my judgment but ended it up forgetting, that the aspect of moon to venus exactly on the angle could mean "the result is imminent". Of course I didn?t write it :-P

Thanks for that

Paul wrote:I just wanted to ask why you chose Jupiter in particular. Is it just because it is a dignified and angular benefic which receives the moon?

Not quite. I chose Jupiter because it was very strong in symbolism. It seemed that "AC ruler applies to 8th house ruler in domicile" seemed the easiest aspect to pinpoint it's meaning. Also, it was a conjunction, an application that I could believe more readily to be of importance.

Okay - it's great so far. But I wanna know what happened to the astrologer's reputation with Venus on the MC in rulership!

Thanks PFN for the chart.
I would like to add one more aspect to the already very well discussed chart.

I am curious to know if the partile/platic counts in relation to planet's aspect to a house.

If we,for a moment, forget about 7th as the astrologer- then it could get simpler.

The business - 7th got completed as soon as the 7th lord was in the range of platic aspect to ascendant and completed before it went out of that range.
Saturn being retrograde and in 2nd then is not a hindrance but a virtue.

13 Apr 2010- Saturn 29 deg 37
20 Apr 2010- Saturn 29 deg 09


PD

Olivia wrote:Okay - it's great so far. But I wanna know what happened to the astrologer's reputation with Venus on the MC in rulership!

Oh, Olivia, I do not find it nice to boast about myself, but the querent and a few people that saw my judgement as it went on were actually quite impressed, and would not leave me in peace about anything they could inquire. Not that it had a huge impact, but it was a lot nicer than when Saturn culminates on a chart and I get hate mail because of my answers to whatever question...

Pankajdubey, if I understood you correctly, you are saying that before opposing Saturn, the Moon travessed all of those aspects and aspected the rising sign, correct? If so, could you elaborate so I could see your point clearly?