But what I mean is, is there any way for astrologers to monitor your full success and failure rate without being obliged to subscribe to your newsletter? If you are only posting 'predictions with results' after the game, then the public isn't able to consider how you have fared overall, with consideration to the commentaries that did less well. It would good for astrologers to know more about the particular tehniques of your method, and how it fares across a full season. (I'm assuming that you are not claiming 100% accuracy, although that isn't clarified on page that you linked to).

I also wonder why you would want to claim a copyright for using real-time methods. I don't have a great interest in sports astrology myself, but I have seen that evaluating matches through real time, including the consideration of expected end of match charts, has been used very many times in this forum by a wide number of participants. (This forum doesn't only use horary for the astrological evaluation of sports events, BTW, nor what you call 'Frawley's techniques' - but welcomes the discussion of the subject using any method, and encourages the interchange of various ideas). Is there something specific about your approach that you are trying to protect, or is it just teh text of the prediction (?) because I genuinely don't understand how anyone can claim copyright over astrological technique.

Regards
Deb

I learned from Jim Lewis, the creator of Astrocartography, the value of copyrighting methods. His work is still copyright protected, as well it should be. I spent many years and thousands of dollars developing my Real-Time Methods. No one was using them before I starting publishing in 1997. I know - I was searching for years for a better way. I published extensively and my copyrights date back to 1997.

It's easy to devalue investment and hard work when you aren't the one who had to do it. In any other profession, when people quote from someone else's work, they are trained to give a source and reference. That's just common courtesy and common decency, everywhere except in astrology. I know lots of astrologers who bought my works back in the '90's and then write about the methods with no acknowledgement whatsoever of any source - as if it fell out of the sky into their lap. If astrologers don't respect astrology, and don't respect astrological work, then who will?

Anyone interested in my methods will find plenty of material on my website, on StarIQ, or in my book, Real-Time Astrology. However, I am a professional, and I have many clients and subscribers who pay for the information you think I should just give away for free. For one thing, that wouldn't be fair to my subscribers, would it? Besides, a subscription is only $12.95 - not even 6 pounds. It's not like I'm price-gouging here.

More importantly, Astrology is a profession, not a charity. If astrologers don't think it is worth anything, that doesn't bode very well for our future, does it? How about a little respect?

Hi Courtney

It's easy to devalue investment and hard work when you aren't the one who had to do it. ... I know lots of astrologers who bought my works back in the '90's and then write about the methods with no acknowledgement whatsoever of any source - as if it fell out of the sky into their lap.

I rather like the irony of that ? as if astrological knowledge just ?fell out of the sky?? But I haven?t devalued anything have I? I only asked a question. Unfortunately it will probably disappoint that I would affirm the ?real-time technique? to be such an obviously integral part of the logic of astrology (and what we generally refer to as transits) that I once even explained it and popularised it myself as a useful method for world cup matches, for which I got very good results (along with not-so-good results on other occasions). But I can swear I haven?t read any of your material, or received any kind of influence from you directly or indirectly ? I just thought it through.

I do find it a bit worrying that you want to copyright such general ideas, and it makes me wary of not reading anything that you have authored now, just in case I read something I already knew but then feel obliged to acknowledge you as an influence.

Also (to explain) I don?t have any problem with you charging a subscription for your newsletter. I merely have concerns that your example ?predictions? are only selected extracts that are published for public inspection after the event. Even that is your privilege and entirely OK with me ? until you offer up those ?predictions? as demonstrations of how your technique is better than anyone else?s or some other named astrologer. Surely you ought to be able to substantiate such a claim to the people you are making it to, or not make the claim in the first place (?).

I have always been happy for astrologers to use this forum as a means to present news about their services and products that may be of interest to other astrologers; whilst taking a firm line against spammers. I?m just wondering what you are willing to share here with other interested astrologers, because it would be great to get a real discussion on technique going, along with informed analysis that is put out for scrutiny before the event happens, which is what usually happens when members test out their techniques here.

Perhaps - in the spirit of experiment and discussion - you would be willing to share a view on some forthcoming matches and make some public analysis of the astrology before it happens?

Sincerely
Deb

Perhaps you misunderstand the nature of copyrights. It is the right to copy material that has been published or put out into the public domain. If you take the trouble to edit and publish material, then you do own the copyrights, especially if you make the effort to secure them. If you never published, then how can you prove your claim to the material?

These are merely the legal standards that every other field is supposed to respect, just like referencing and sourcing when you quote or borrow from other people's work. If you have a problem with copyright laws and protections, which apparently you do, you're welcome to it. Most writers and creative people are grateful for the protections they provide.

I'm not asking for anything that isn't already standard in any other profession. In astrology, apparently anything goes, and then astrologers wonder why they get so little respect. If we want respect, first we need to act respectable.

Perhaps we should leave it at that then. I'm asking one thing, and you are answering another, so let's return the thread to the subject of football.

Hi Courtney

You make some interesting points, but they also raise as many questions as they answer. For example:

With all due respect, I have never had any consistent, or ongoing success using Frawley's methods or any of the vast array of competing horary methods out there

What roughly has been your success rate using Frawley's method and when you refer to 'competing horary methods' what exactly do you mean? In contrast, how would your own methods fare against them? I can't find a success rate on your own website (though admittedly I've only skimmed it). For example your website states "By conducting and publishing the ongoing research that not only consistently improves our accuracy, but ultimately establishes the reality of planetary influence once and for all. ". Do you mean your newsletter? Or are there some other third party publications that you use?

Also I'm a little confused about your use of copyright. I have no problem with copyright per se, but I'm not clear about your use of it here. On one hand you say "It is the right to copy material that has been published or put out into the public domain. If you take the trouble to edit and publish material, then you do own the copyrights, especially if you make the effort to secure them." which is correct, but then you seem to confuse that issue for what Deb asked which is "I genuinely don't understand how anyone can claim copyright over astrological technique. ", in other words, there is a difference between copyrighting the actual publications that you have written, and then copyright a technique that is employed to get them. If this doesn't make sense, imagine that I have a website, I wrote the website using HTML. I have copyright to the actual HTML content itself, not to the ability to write in HTML. Does that make sense? What I'm saying is, there is a difference between copyrighting material published, and copyright a technique that is employed.
For example you say "I learned from Jim Lewis, the creator of Astrocartography, the value of copyrighting methods. ", but it seems one of us isn't understanding copyright law quite right here, and it may well be me, but I was under the impression that Jim Lewis has merely trademarked the name 'astrocartography' and copyrighted his materials, has he also managed to somehow copyright the various astrological techniques employed? In other words copyright is given to authors, not to inventors. Copyright does not protect the ideas or techniques which is an important point about copyright law. As an example, Deb has written a book houses, the content of the book is copyrighted as well it should be. I cannot copy from it verbatim without at least acknowledging the author and I certainly cannot reproduce it. However I could very well write my own book about houses borrowing from ideas that Deb has made and it would be fully withing my legal right to do so and would in no way be a breach of copyright. So copyright does not prevent someone being inspired by your ideas, nor does it protect the ideas themselves, it only helps provide you with control over who can and cannot copy your written work which has been published. At least that's my understanding of it.







(apologies if this is derailing the thread even more, I won't be insulted or feel slighted if a mod chooses to remove it.)

It's time we started football analysis instead of discussing on copy rights somebody claims to have as to astrological technique.

EL
Prague Sparta - CSKA
Odds 2.50 3.30 2.75

19:00 CET, 15.12.2010

Generali Arena coordinates 50 05 59 N, 14 29 57 E

Prague Sparta's home kit is red shirt and white shorts. CSKA away kit is white, they may play in black third kit. Both teams may play in their third kits - white for Sparta, black for CSKA.

ASC 01LE52, MC 09AR28, POF 25SC35, Moon 17AR22

Day and hour Mercury

The chart is not radical. This indication favours Sparta. If Sparta plays in their home kit but CSKA in their white away, then ASC is CSKA, DSC - Sparta

+ Sparta
1) chart not radical
2) Moon in Aries favours red
3) POF in Scorpio

+ CSKA
1) Moon applies to trine by Sun in his exaltation sign - this is general indication favouring the fave

My prediction is Prague Sparta. I think nonradicality of the chart should be the decisive indication.

Group J

Sevilla - Dortmund
Odds 2.50 3.40 2.70
Kick off 21:05 CET, 15.12.2010
Ramon Sanchez Pizjuan coordinates 37 23 02 N, 05 58 14 W

Dortmund needs only victory to grab the second place. Sevilla will be satisfied with draw.

Sevilla's home kit is white. Dortmund's awa kit is black shirt and yellow shorts.

ASC 03LE92, MC 21AR16, POF 27SC43, Moon 18AR25

Hour and day Mercury
ASC - Sevilla, DSC - Dortmund

+Dortmund
1) chart not radical
2) Saturn, L of DSC, is dispositor of Mercury, l of day and hour
3) Moon conjunct MC from the cadent side (orb 3 degrees),
4) Moon sextiles antisca Venus, ruler of IC

+ Sevilla
1) Moon applies by trine to Sun, L of ASC, in Aries, exaltation of Sun; this aspect usually favours the fave irrespective who is ASC, considering that the orb is rather wide it may not help Sevilla

My prediction is Dortmund

Obviously, not my day. It's very hard to predict how the irradicality of the chart will play out. In both cases the results was moved away from the favourite but not sufficiently to win. However if you bet 1X or 2X following my analysis, you would profit.

Leverkusen - Atletico Madrid
Odds 3.00 3.60 2.20
Kick off 19:00 CET, 16.12.2010

Bay Arena coordinates 51 02 18 N, 07 00 08 E

Atletico Madrid desperatedly need a win to secure the second place.
Buyer's home kit is black with red stripe on the breast, Atletico most probably will play in thier home kit which is white shirt with red stripes and blue shorts.
ASC 27CA52, MC 02AR29, POF 02SG47, Moon 29AR35
Day Jupiter, hour Saturn on the brink to Jupiter

ASC - Atletico, DSC Buyern
+ draw
1) hour on the brink,
2) significators under the horizon,
3) Moon VOC with her dispositor Mars in cadent VI

+ Bayern
1) Lord of DSC, Saturn is also L of hour and dispositor of Mercury, which fits with Atletico Madrid (combination of many colours)

The chart seems pretty promising for Leverkusen, however it might be draw considering the indications mentioned. I will go for Bayern.

Sunderland - Bolton
Odds 2.10 3.20 3.75

Kick off 12:45, 18.12.2010

Stadium of Light coordinates 54 54 52 N 01 23 18W

19AR11, MC06CA, POF 14VI41, Moon 21TA59
Day and hour Saturn

Sunderland's is 7th with 24 points in 17 games, Bolton is 6th with 24 points. Sunderland has never won in Sunderland (the statistics stem back from 1992). The last 5 games in Sunderland were draw between these teams.
Sunderland's home kit is red with white stripes and black shorts. Bolton's away kit is blue shirt and shorts

Saturn, l of hour and day, is in reception by exaltation with Mars, L of ASC, so I consider the chart radical.
ASC - Sunderland

+ Sunderland
1) Mars, l of ASC, exalted culminates on MC
2) Mars, l of ASC, is dispositor of Venus, l of DSC

+ Bolton
1) Venus, L of DSC, is dispositor of Saturn, L of hour and day
2) Saturn, l of hour and day, is fall on Aries ASC, which usually is a good testimony for the underdog but for the reception by exaltation of Mars, l of ASC, and Saturn, L of hour and day.

Birmingham - Newcastle
Odds 2.60 3.20 2.80

Kick off 15:00, 18.12.2010

St Andrew's 52 28 32 W, 01 52 06 W

Birmingham is 16 with 18 points in 17 games, Newcastle is 8th with 22 points.

ASC 14GE15, MC 07AQ50, POF 10SC51, Moon 23TA11
Day Saturn, hour Sun

Birmingham's home kit is royal blue with a white broad horizantal stripe on the brest, Newcastle most probably will play in their home kit which is black with white stripes and black shorts.

ASC is Newcastle, Birmingham DSC (Jupiter in Pisces). In addition, Newcastle is Saturn.

+ Birmingham
1) Significator of Birmingham Jupiter in Pisces in the detriment and fall of Mercury, l of ASC, which is combust, retrograde and in the fall and detriment,
2) Moon in her exaltation sextiles Jupiter, Birmingham's significator,
3) Jupiter above the horizon, Saturn, Newcastle's significator, under on the cusp of VI,
4) Nonradicality of the chart I consider favouring more Birmingham who at least from 1992 has never won Newcastle in Birmingham

Bundesliga

Wolfsburg - Hoffenheim
Odds 2.20 3.50 3.30
15:30 CET, 18.12.2010

Wolksvagen arena coordinates 52 25 55 N, 10 48 14 E
ASC 19GE52, MC 12AQ56, POF 16SC41, Moon 22TA55

Day Saturn, hour Venus

Wolfsburg's home kit is white shirt with green shoulders, Hoffenheim's blue.

According to colours Hoffenheim is DSC.

Nonradicality in my opinion might be an indication that there would not be draw considering that Wolfsburg has a strek of 5 draws, Hoffenheim - 3.

+ Hoffenheim
1) chart not radical,
2) Jupiter (blue) is dispositor of Mercury who is combust, retrograde and in detriment,
3) Moon sextiles (dexter) Jupiter

Nurmberg - Hannover
2.20 3.40 3.40

15:30 CET, 18.12.2010

Frankenstadion coordinates 49 25 34 N, 11 07 33 E

ASC 16GE11, MC13AQ16, POF 12SC33, Moon 22TA55
Day Saturn, hour Sun on the brink to Venus

Nurmberg - claret shirt, black shorts. Hannover - light rosy shirt, claret shorts

ASC Hannover, DSC Nurnberg. In addition Mars for Nurnberg (claret shirt), Venus for Hannover (light rosy shirt)

Nuremberg has not won 5 games in a row. Hannover has a streak of 5 straight victories.

+Nurnberg
1) chart not radical
2) Jupiter, l of DSC, is dispositor of Mercury combust, retrograde and in detriment,
3) Jupiter is dispositor of the Sun, l of hour,
4) Mars (red claret) is dispositor of Venus (light rosy) and POF,
5) Moon sextiles Jupiter

+ Hannover
1) Venus conjunct POF,
2) Jupiter, l of hour, exalts Venus,
3) Moon in Taurus, in Venus house and Mars detriment

+ draw
1) hour on the brink from Sun to Venus

St Pauli - Mainz
2.60 3.20 2.75

18:30 CET, 18.12.2010

Millerntor Stadion coordinates 53 33 16 N, 09 58 04 E

ASC 28CA05; MC29PI40, POF 25SG56, Moon 24TA32
Day Saturn, hour Moon

Pauli's kit is copper colouring shirt and brown shorts. Mainz away kit is white shirt and red shorts.

The chart is radical, but POF combust which, alongside with others, is a testimony moving the result away from the fave. Mars fall degree is on ASC which could be an indication for a low score game, in particular considering that the sigs are under the horizon.

According to colours ASC is Pauli, Moon's dispositor Venus (copper) in Scorpio

+ Pauli
1) chart radical by house
2) Venus is dispositor of Saturn, L of ASC

+ Mainz
1) POF combust