What's the point of all this analyzing then? What's the point of this discussion - if there's no prediction which also entails a reasonably close temporal marker to it, then there's no prediction to talk about and astrology is actually useless in this regard. I'm not saying one must narrow it down to a day to be called a 'great astrologer'(whatever that may mean, anyway ), but a quarter of the year/year in which it will most probably happen is a reasonable expectation.

To Goran,

Many people dont see this coming to a head so there is no time to effectively predict. Predicting nothing will happen counts as a prediction too! I agree though that if you are predicting something will happen it shoud be possible with a quarter or ingress. Then again a lot of astrologers here are not relying on traditional methods such as ingress charts.

To Steven

Thanks for an excellent article. A great demonstration of traditional techniques. The one thing that surprised me about your article was that you seem to have changed your position that things would escalate in the Aries ingress not this this one. In your post of 08/12/2010 you suggested it would happen in this quarter. Was this related to study of the US Aries Ingress Steven?

Of course what counts as a correct prediction here is debateable. Do we need a full scale war or just further border clashes to meet a prediction of 'escalation'? I had always thought the latter was more likely if things degenerated rather than outright war. Considering so many people think the North Koreans will be reigned in by the Chinese behind the scenes a further outbreak of hostilities would be quite remarkable. I therefore think the odds have always favoured a diplomatic solution. However, the astrology troubles me a lot here.

To Yuzuru:

My question to you is what is your astrological analysis for predicting nothing will happen? You have previously criticised the mundane forum for just putting up ingress charts for the quarters of the year without foundational ingress charts. Well you have had them here! By profection and other methods things seem to be happening. I earlier pointed out how the Lunar eclipse exactly triggers these charts. So I am unclear what astrological (rather than political) view you are basing your opinion on? I'm interested. Are you just taking the line that wars that are expected dont happen? There is something to that. Historically, North Korea has always done things when the world spotlight is off it.

To Everyone

I dont know about tensions in Korea but things are getting a bit overheated here. Obviously, we cant all be right in our predictions. There are fundamentally different approaches being used here. I see that as a bonus as it gives us a wealth of different perspectives. However, lets keep it respectful folks. As St Paul said 'For now we see through a glass, darkly'. Humility is a wise position for any prognosticator.

Mark

Hello, Mark

Where did you deduce

things are getting a bit overheated here

from?
I haven't noticed anyone behaving disrespectfully in this thread, myself included!
And yes, I've noticed not everyone is working with ingress charts here, but that doesn't mean predictions cannot be given - it's all astrology, isn't it?
Posing simple very general questions on the problem of astrological prediction (which have always been asked and are going to be asked) shouldn't offend anyone because nothing personal was in them.

Here's what DazMadrigal wrote, just earlier in the thread:

Hear Hear! An astrologer who doesn't make predictions is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike. We should all raise a glass to members like Andrew, Goca and Mike who are bold enough to step up to the plate..and often get it right!

Maybe Tom and Deb could have go? I mean if astrology is not about prediction then what is about - navel gazing?

Regards,
Goran

Hello Goran,

Where did you deduce

Quote:
things are getting a bit overheated here
from?

I haven't noticed anyone behaving disrespectfully in this thread, myself included! And yes, I've noticed not everyone is working with ingress charts here, but that doesn't mean predictions cannot be given - it's all astrology, isn't it? Posing simple very general questions on the problem of astrological prediction (which have always been asked and are going to be asked) shouldn't offend anyone because nothing personal was in them.

I have nothing against prediction. Its been one of my priorities since I took over as moderator. My issue is about putting things in such a blunt way that others could take offence. How you perceive things and how others might receive them are often quite different.

There is no blood on the carpet. Yet.. Prevention is better than cure. Your way of expressing yourself can be quite robust. I could see your comments potentially contributing to a heated exchange. I decided to intervene before that happened. I think this thread is too important to allow that kind of thing to happen.

I dont intend to debate my moderation comments further. Lets get back to the astrology please. Its been of a very high calibre to date. Lets see if we can keep that up.

Mark

Well, I'm quite surprised, I have to say.

English is not my mother tongue and I certainly don't have the richness of vocabulary typical of native speakers so I apologize in advance for not being able to convey my messages with due subtlety, as it seems to be suggested by your response.

How you perceive things and how others might receive them are often quite different.

Right. So that implies you might have perceived my responses quite differently than they were intended. No blood spilled as I was talking only about astrology and nothing else; no one else complained about the way I commented and there's no problem then.
I agree that it's better to prevent than to cure. I also like this thread very much and I would not do anything to spoil it.

Kind regards,
Goran

Goran,

I will reply to you by PM. I dont want any more of this thread taken up on this.

Mark

Hi Mark,

To agree to disagree without getting bogged down in personality issues is probably what you are suggesting. I think you are quite right. The contributions here all seem to be sincere in any event.

So, to carry on.........

I'm fascinated by that Mercury station on the 30th. It's the critical 19 degree mark in mutable signs. Not only does it have the capacity to set off the events of the NK shelling of Nov 23rd, but this degree also has a strong link to US historical events associated with war. Here's an article on it............

America's Pretexts for War

This article explores historical events related to USA wars using astrology.

The reason for doing this was the observation that the ways the USA is involved in wars is tightly correlated with the aspects of Mars in USA natal chart, that is, the square with the Black Moon Lilith and Neptune.

In particular, when it comes to finding war pretexts, Lilith's natal position in US natal charts seems extremely sensitive to transits, progressions or solar arcs and stands for media manipulation, lies and different dirty tricks, such as inflicting self-damage and then blaming it on the enemy, as a way to wage war. Or, as Ralph Waldo Emerson has put it :"Most of the great results of history are brought about by discreditable means."

Continued........

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrolog ... etexts.php

This article explores historical events related to USA wars using astrology.

Hello Jerry,

There is a logic in looking at the International dimension of this. Especially the USA and China. If we are moving on to discuss national charts of other countries please specify the data you are using. There are numerous USA charts. There are even several Sagittarius rising charts! I quite like the chart for the US Federal government myself as it is about the only completely accurate timed chart around. All the others rely on rectification of some sort.

I confess I dont know what to do with the Black Moon Lillith or why it is relevant. Still there is room for diversity. I have Michael O'Reilly's book Political Astrology. Some interesting information in the book. He utlises the Scorpio rising chart for the USA ( a slight variation of Marc Penfield) and makes heavy use of asteroids in mundane analysis linking them to key events in US history.

Mark

Hello, Jerry

It's the critical 19 degree mark in mutable signs

I'm aware of the 4th and 17th degrees of mutable signs as 'critical' (derived from Moon's mansions) - are there any other sources on critical degrees where you got this from or you just allow a bit bigger orb on this?

Greetings,
Goran

To Mark and Cor Scorpii,

The commonly accepted US Sibly chart of July 4, 1776 5:10 pm LMT is the date and time being used as the reference chart in the article.

The other questions you posed are unclear. Perhaps you can rephrase it for me? The article is a very simple straightforward analysis and utilizes actual events as a reference point. If you are getting stuck on the idea of what exactly is a Black Moon Lillith and are questioning whether it is a valid astrological measurement, well then, that's another story. Here's some information for you........

http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/lilith-dark-moon.html

Hi, Mark, as I pointed out in my post, it was an opinion, so no astrology whatsoever. Just my two cents.

-it would have been lovely to predict the clash between Koreas, but no one was looking.
-then, the Koreas clashed, and now everybody is looking too much, trying to find things. And we all know that astrologers have a fondness to find what they are looking for, even when it is not there.

-and while we are at that, a lot of behind-the-scenes action is happening, that will not be published by the media. In fact, as wikileaks showed, we don?t have any idea what kind of interests were at hand when someone ordered that attack.

It all melt down to what is our "default option". What will happen if nothing happens?

I was having the same feeling as Yuzuru but I didn't dare to say for it might sound too critical. The article with Aries ingress is nice but now we just had the nine month later Capricorn ingress it feels a bit like hindsight astrology. I wouldn't do any better myself though. For example when we (NW-Europe) had the cold weather with sharp cold winds and snow a few weeks ago, Mars was in square aspect with Jupiter. After a period of thaw the cold returned from the day Sun was square to Jupiter, Venus is in 45? and 135? respectively and soon square with Mars. So through this I could have explained the cold weather, however the question one always has to ask oneself is: I can see it now but could I have predicted it?

The other questions you posed are unclear. Perhaps you can rephrase it for me? The article is a very simple straightforward analysis and utilizes actual events as a reference point. If you are getting stuck on the idea of what exactly is a Black Moon Lillith and are questioning whether it is a valid astrological measurement, well then, that's another story. Here's some information for you........

Thanks Jerry,

I have heard people describe this but didn't know what it exactly meant. As I haven't used this I'm hardly in a position to disagree with anyone. I have never seriously looked at this before. I tend to prefer a more traditional approach and try to minimize 'extras' to fixed stars, antiscia and parts but I will check it out. I find it hard to believe there are not more basic testimonies of war but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Mark