I will try my best to read with what i know so far..i might suck,don't judge me pls :-)
Question asked on 21 Dec. 2010 at 23.30 in Konz (Germany)
Is my friend lying ?

I am Mercury in Sag. in 4H. asking determination . My friend's sign. is Moon -cancer in 10th house which makes the situation stronger about my concern.
8h ruler Venus is in 3H. Venus is separating from Mars with a sextile.
Shows that he already made that lie with a gossip about this "love-romantic" issue.Again his sig. Moon separated from Sun ,sun is 12H is of hidden issue, it is hidden....

Moon is applying to Venus..i think he is going to contunie to this gossip about "love-romantic" issue...causing two people not to be together.


I know, i didn't read well..but i think i got the conscept even it is slightly.

Hi Jotei -

I would suggest reading William Lilly's Christian Astrology, especially his section on rumors.

I don't know your situation and this sounds rather heated and complicated (Deb doesn't like posts that are too involved like this because they can cause the poster to get upset). You have a querent retro, combust and in detriment - I am not sure if you noticed this. This would be a consideration and Lilly talks about this in his book (free to download). I didn't view your chart, but you may have other issues. Combust people are unlikely to see a situation clearly, but add on all of the other debilities I mentioned. Mercury-Jupiter square is also an aspect of preconceived judgments or judgments made before knowing a situation fully, etc.

Quesited is in domicile and the Moon isn't particularly known for being a liar when well dignified essentially, although we do have a thread on when dignified planets behave badly - still that is not really Moon's nature. Moon is convertable in nature though and takes on the characteristics of the planets she touches.

Jotei,

If the person is your ?friend?, would it not be possible for you to simply talk to him openly about how you feel about him or his conduct? I think that would be a much less complicated way to deal with this issue; it would involve much less of interpretation.

Regards,
Mansoor

Hello Jotei

You've got the significators of you and your friend assigned right, those are the foundation stones and obviously if they're not assigned correctly the interpretation will go awry from there. It's nice that your friend is signified by the Moon, because that means we don't have to look at 3 significators

As you've said, you're signified by Mercury in Sag in the 4th. I want to echo what Tanit has said, about reading the chapter in Lilly's free book about rumours and reliability of information. Lilly's view of a combust significator is important as well. The horary chart shows that your friend's influence is important in this matter (Moon strongly placed by house and sect), and that your search for solid information is important too (you're signified by Mercury retrograde, in Sagittarius and squaring your dispositor, Jupiter (a strongly-placed benefic)).

Your friend (11th house) is signified by the Moon in Cancer in the 10th.

The 10th is the most visible place in the chart and therefore not hidden. In a night chart (which is what this is) the Moon is well placed above the Earth. So although you're right that the Moon has just been eclipsed it's very high in the sky and just on the brink of moving out of the opposition with the Sun. If your friend were lying or being shifty in one way or another it's unlikely they'd be signified by a planet so visible in the chart.

You're right that the Moon is applying to an aspect with Venus, however before that the Moon makes an aspect to Mars. Mars rules the 3rd and the 8th so it's obviously relevant to accuracy of information. Although it's an opposition, Moon and Mars have mutual reception, as well as Essential and Accidental Dignity in their own right.

Because the Moon has Essential Dignity in Cancer, and Accidental Dignity in the 10th, alongside the other chart factors above, and including your significator's placements, I'd say that the Sun-ruling-12th is probably more about not seeing your friend clearly (the Moon (your friend) has been burnt by the Sun-ruling-12th). I suspect this horary is saying something along the lines of this.... a careful conversation to clear the air looks like it might be beneficial but an accusatory tone or presumption of guilt is likely to inflame the situation (you want the constructive use of that mutually received Moon opposition to exalted Mars in Capricorn), and that it would be much more productive in the situation you've asked the horary about to see your friend as an honest broker and approach him accordingly. I'd even go so far as to say that it's even possible that your friend is able to bring you some help. The chart is, in my view, encouraging you to resolve the situation favourably with your friend, but if I've missed something I'm happy to stand corrected as I'm a horary student and life's reality always has the final say!

Regards

H.

I put this one together a couple of years ago, and happened to run across it today - it's a combination of rules for 'Is the rumour true, is the advice good?' questions, and it's served me well.

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To judge if a statement or rumour is true, or if advice is sound, check these things and tally up the preponderance of evidence (courtesy Mssrs Lilly and Gadbury, and Lee Lehman):

If the Lord of the Ascendant, the Moon, and the Moon's dispositor (ideally, all of them) are fixed, not cadent, and in good aspect to the Sun or the benefics, the rumour is true.

If those three are cadent and afflicted by the malefics, the rumour is false, regardless of the essential dignity of the planets.

If all four angles, the Moon, and Mercury are fixed, separating from malefics, and applying to benefics, the rumour is true.

If the MC/IC axis is fixed or the Moon rules either the MC or the IC, the rumour is true.

If a benefic is in the first, but the Moon is unfortunate, the rumour is false or misleading.

If Mercury is retrograde or debilitated, the rumour is false or misleading.

If the planets to which the Moon or Mercury apply are afflicted, the rumour is false.

If the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon is under the Sun's beams, it brings secrecy to the matter.

If the Moon is void of course or in hard aspect to Mercury, the rumour is either false, or of no import.

The Moon in 1, 3, 10, or 11, separating from an easy aspect to any planet and applying to an easy aspect of the Lord of the Ascendant says that the rumour is true.

If the Moon squares or opposes Mercury and neither is in easy aspect to the Ascendant, it argues that the rumour is false.

If the Lord of 6, 8, or 12 is in the first house, in hard aspect to the ascendant or to the ruler of the Ascendant, or if Mars or Saturn is retrograde in the 1st house, or in hard aspect to the Ascendant or the Ascendant ruler, the querent will receive damage or prejudice from the news.

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Not all of these conditions will apply in all charts, so add them up and see which side the balance falls on.

The last one - with the rulers of 6, 8, or 12 in the Ascendant, or in hard aspect to the Ascendant or its ruler, or Mars or Saturn retrograde in the Ascendant or in hard aspect to the Ascendant or its ruler applies to any chart - the querent will suffer loss or damage from the answer in some way.

This is great, thanks Olivia!

Great job, Olivia!

Olivia wrote: The last one - with the rulers of 6, 8, or 12 in the Ascendant, or in hard aspect to the Ascendant or its ruler, or Mars or Saturn retrograde in the Ascendant or in hard aspect to the Ascendant or its ruler applies to any chart - the querent will suffer loss or damage from the answer in some way.

This is quite interesting- hopefully, Jotei will tell us if this is the chart that we discussed in the other thread!

Regarding Moon in Cancer as quesited, Deb is the one who created a thread on When dignified planets don't express 'dignified behaviour'.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5144

Moon dignified (here it is essentially dignifed and also accidentally well placed in the 10th) should express the nature of a dignified Moon, which Lilly says is:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/moonatt.html

Composed manners, a soft, tender creature, a lover of all honest and ingenious sciences, a searcher of, and delighter in novelties, natural propensity to flit and shift habitation, unsteadfast, wholly caring for the present times, timorous, prodigal, and easily frightened, however loving peace, and to live free from the cares of this life. If a mechanic [23] , the man learns many occupations, and frequently will be tampering with many ways to trade in.

In what ways might a dignified Moon not express dignified behavior? I honestly don't know - perhaps over-emotional responses to a given situation. The Moon is "shifty," meaning it is fickle and unlikely to linger on an issue for too long. I would think a Venusian influence would make Moon want peace even more so and might try to smooth over the situation, or possibly gloss it over in an effort to move on from it. Mute signs (Cancer) aren't always that great at expressing themselves with words. I would think a luminary well dignified in the 10th would represent truth being revealed (this is a public house) vs. something being covert or negatively intended (as Handn talked about).

Olivia wrote:I put this one together a couple of years ago, and happened to run across it today - it's a combination of rules for 'Is the rumour true, is the advice good?' questions, and it's served me well.

--------------

To judge if a statement or rumour is true, or if advice is sound, check these things and tally up the preponderance of evidence (courtesy Mssrs Lilly and Gadbury, and Lee Lehman):

If the Lord of the Ascendant, the Moon, and the Moon's dispositor (ideally, all of them) are fixed, not cadent, and in good aspect to the Sun or the benefics, the rumour is true.
If the planets to which the Moon or Mercury apply are afflicted, the rumour is false.



If the Moon is void of course or in hard aspect to Mercury, the rumour is either false, or of no import.

The Moon in 1, 3, 10, or 11, separating from an easy aspect to any planet and applying to an easy aspect of the Lord of the Ascendant says that the rumour is true.

This is what confuses me about these rules. Isn't the nature of rumor important in that regard. It seems that if the rumor is undesirable and the querent interests would be damaged if it were true, than the application to benefices, like in the last rule mentioned by Olivia, would indicate, that it would be false, i.e. the querents' worry is unsubstantiated? And in reverse, if the rumor is beneficial for the querent, than application to benefics should be good as well? in other words the benefics would show the querent's benefit in any situation. I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

elumen

I think the main rules of horary still apply to a rumor question, meaning you still would check the quesited's behavior. Whenever you question someone's intentions towards you, their own significator should help shed light on whether or not they are a problem or if something else is the issue.
Maybe we can try to rules here:

If the Lord of the Ascendant, the Moon, and the Moon's dispositor (ideally, all of them) are fixed, not cadent, and in good aspect to the Sun or the benefics, the rumour is true. If those three are cadent and afflicted by the malefics, the rumour is false, regardless of the essential dignity of the planets.

Lord of the ASC Mercury is not fixed, under the influence of an angular Jupiter, not cadent and is combust Sun. Rumor is mixed - truth and untruth.

The Moon (who is its own dispositor) is not fixed, not cadent and does not aspect the Sun but does apply to oppose Mars. Rumor is mixed - truth and untruth.

If all four angles, the Moon, and Mercury are fixed, separating from malefics, and applying to benefics, the rumour is true.

Mercury is partile Jupiter square, Moon aspects Mars. Angles are mutable - again, seems there is truth and untruth being told.

If the MC/IC axis is fixed or the Moon rules either the MC or the IC, the rumour is true.

Axis is not fixed, Moon doesn't rule MC or IC but is placed in the 10th and in domicile.

If a benefic is in the first, but the Moon is unfortunate, the rumour is false or misleading.

This is not the case - would more so point to truth.

If Mercury is retrograde or debilitated, the rumour is false or misleading.

Mercury is in such a state but is also the querent.

If the planets to which the Moon or Mercury apply are afflicted, the rumour is false.

Mercury applies to a benefic Jupiter. Moon applies to oppose Mars. Truth and untruth?

If the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon is under the Sun's beams, it brings secrecy to the matter.

Again, this describes the querent - combust.

If the Moon is void of course or in hard aspect to Mercury, the rumour is either false, or of no import.

Not the case - would support truth.

The Moon in 1, 3, 10, or 11, separating from an easy aspect to any planet and applying to an easy aspect of the Lord of the Ascendant says that the rumour is true.

Moon is in the 10th is not separating from an influence, does not aspect querent, is applyng to oppose a malefic - mixed truth.

If the Moon squares or opposes Mercury and neither is in easy aspect to the Ascendant, it argues that the rumour is false.

Moon doesn't aspect Mercury. ASC-Moon sextiled previous. Mercury squares the ASC, but again this is querent. Mixed truth.

If the Lord of 6, 8, or 12 is in the first house, in hard aspect to the ascendant or to the ruler of the Ascendant, or if Mars or Saturn is retrograde in the 1st house, or in hard aspect to the Ascendant or the Ascendant ruler, the querent will receive damage or prejudice from the news.

Lord of 6 is Saturn, 8 is Mars, 12 is Sun. They don't aspect the ASC in hard aspect. Sun combusts ASC ruler - querent is prejudice/damaged from the "news." Not sure what this implies. The querent is likely prejudiced against quesited, IMO.

elumen wrote:

Olivia wrote:I put this one together a couple of years ago, and happened to run across it today - it's a combination of rules for 'Is the rumour true, is the advice good?' questions, and it's served me well.

--------------

To judge if a statement or rumour is true, or if advice is sound, check these things and tally up the preponderance of evidence (courtesy Mssrs Lilly and Gadbury, and Lee Lehman):

If the Lord of the Ascendant, the Moon, and the Moon's dispositor (ideally, all of them) are fixed, not cadent, and in good aspect to the Sun or the benefics, the rumour is true.
If the planets to which the Moon or Mercury apply are afflicted, the rumour is false.



If the Moon is void of course or in hard aspect to Mercury, the rumour is either false, or of no import.

The Moon in 1, 3, 10, or 11, separating from an easy aspect to any planet and applying to an easy aspect of the Lord of the Ascendant says that the rumour is true.

This is what confuses me about these rules. Isn't the nature of rumor important in that regard. It seems that if the rumor is undesirable and the querent interests would be damaged if it were true, than the application to benefices, like in the last rule mentioned by Olivia, would indicate, that it would be false, i.e. the querents' worry is unsubstantiated? And in reverse, if the rumor is beneficial for the querent, than application to benefics should be good as well? in other words the benefics would show the querent's benefit in any situation. I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

elumen

Ben Dykes wrote about this somewhere, though he was using the example of how you give a man suspected of thievery the first house. The man is a thief if the general 'good' rules apply - dignified ascendant ruler, good dispositor, aspect to the benefics, etc., and is not a thief if the ruler is cadent and debilitated, in aspect to the malefics, and so on.

It seems counter-intuitive, but what you're really judging is the strength of the case of the prosecution, not the man himself.

It works the same way with rumours, advice, etc. You're judging the case of their worth. The stronger the 'good' indications, the more likely the rumours are worth something (true).

I am sorry for replying late.

Ok.It's possible "this friend" says something true and untrue.

It's not really possible to talk to him because t i know he won't tell that what he did or if he ever did.
This isn't not first time he is doing such a thing like that and all of us beware about his nonsense jealousy about "couples" specially when another man involves and if he likes him as well.

The fact is those two people were involve and my other friend (a lady) decided to tell to the guy what she didn't tell before.
Meanwhile "our friend" got upset with something really really nonsense and he disapparead for days now.He doesn't talk to any of us and as you can guess my friend's love interest Mr. X attitudes changed against to her while we know Mr.X is in contact with "our friend".

Again "my friend" has a similar history and it came out later.
I dont consider him as a "friend" anymore,specially after hearing the similar story he has done last summer.
I have no proof but we talked all together and put the pieces together,made the possible story.

I wish i could proof if he done something like that.

While we were struggling with all these question. My friends and i made the question..

Sorry if i tell the story too complicated but this is the whole thing.