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25 by zoidsoft
Mike N wrote: Somehow you seem to be linking this fragmentation into a news story that comes around every few years.

Schmdt is a bright chap, so am I missing something ?
Schmidt wasn't thinking anything of the sort along this line of causation and I don't think it can be as simple as that one factor either. But it is just one more hurdle thrown in the way of astrology being taken as an honest form of investigation where prejudice threatens to build up to such a point that no one can think straight about it anymore. I doubt that the field has a chance to gain better acceptance, but if you remember history, it definitely has the chance of becoming illegal again as has been the case in various times and places in the world. If something bad happens because of the social shift in astrological beliefs and it generates something like what happened in Tucson, AZ, the population could turn against astrology again and we could have ourselves a witch hunt. Don't lull yourself to think it can't happen. It already has in the past.
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

26 by Tom
It already has in the past.
And worse. Astrologer Luke Broughton, the father of American astrology, was living in Philadelphia when he, more or less predicted the death of Abraham Lincoln. He did not predict that Lincoln would be shot in Ford's Theater, but he did point out a period of grave danger to the President during the time he was assassinated.

His reward was to have his offices ransacked by what was described as "an anti-astrology mob." One might think he pulled the trigger.

Later he would be harassed, arrested, and held in jail* in his new home in New York City to which he fled after his home was attacked in Philadelphia. Broughton never did a damn thing to anyone. He published a magazine, read charts, and gave lessons and lectures. So yes this can happen again.

*Broughton's account of this story is that his student W.H. Chaney was arrested and held in Jail. Chaney says they both were locked up. The arrest may have been due in part to Broughton's refusal to kowtow to NYC politicians and I'm sure Chaney's attitude when confronted by authority didn't help. And if Broughton did omit his own incarceration, it might be due to humiliation. I doubt he forgot about it.

27 by Mike N
I don't know what happened to astrologers in Arizona.

I am also not very knowledgable of the status of Astrology in the USA or the typical man in the streets there view of it.
In the UK it is seen as harmless fun and unless someone does something dangerous or criminal due to the advice of an astrologer I don't think its overall status will change in the immediate future.

I seriously doubt this latest precession story will change anything here.

28 by zoidsoft
Mike N wrote:I don't know what happened to astrologers in Arizona..
I was referring to the nut who shot Gabby Giffords and several others in Tucson recently (Obama came to Tucson and made it a national event). Astrologers are just another variation of what the public views as harmless nuts, but if that changes from harmless to harmful, the legality of it could be brought into question again. In Nevada, you have to go into a "booking" process where you are fingerprinted in the same way that criminals are treated after having been arrested for a crime if you want to do readings for people legally as a business, which is why I only sell software in Nevada. It's Nevada's way of saying "we've got our eye on you, so behave and don't cause trouble".
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

29 by Astraea
zoidsoft wrote:I was referring to the nut who shot Gabby Giffords and several others in Tucson recently (Obama came to Tucson and made it a national event). Astrologers are just another variation of what the public views as harmless nuts, but if that changes from harmless to harmful, the legality of it could be brought into question again.
This is not as far-fetched as it might sound to people unfamiliar with the extreme right wing religious faction in the US. I keep an eye on that segment of the sociopolitical spectrum by monitoring a thriving religious television station based in Midland, Texas: there, the guests continually decry God's wrath against "occultists" who practice astrology and yoga (of all things). The shooter in the recent Arizona event had practiced yoga in the past, and this is being pointed to as the opening the devil needed to possess the young man's soul. According to this mindset, God desires the deaths of people who dabble in such things - astrology is lumped right in along with devil worship and the rest of it. Wrong-headed and insane as this is, those are the facts on the ground. All it would take is an opportunistic politician with an insistent constituency to push through the desired "reforms."

30 by Tom
There are always extremists on all sides of the political spectrum. They say extreme things; that's how we know they're extremists. They do not now have the political clout to do anything and in the US not too many people wander about worrying about what astrologers are up to. But it is also true that anything is possible.

Where I live, in order to legitimately open up shop as an astrologer one has to be fingerprinted as well as apply for and pay for all sorts of permits! There aren't too many legitimate businesses where the law requires fingerprinting. A business might require it of employees. This is probably more of a danger, that astrologers would be, if not outright prohibited from practicing, that they will make it difficult to practice with things like this.

Philadelphia outlawed astrologers a few years ago, but they backtracked after a short while.

We have a public relations problem, and I don't see it going away even if misguided religions or even devil worshipers go away first.

31 by Mike N
zoidsoft wrote:
Mike N wrote:I don't know what happened to astrologers in Arizona..
I was referring to the nut who shot Gabby Giffords and several others in Tucson recently (Obama came to Tucson and made it a national event). Astrologers are just another variation of what the public views as harmless nuts, but if that changes from harmless to harmful, the legality of it could be brought into question again. In Nevada, you have to go into a "booking" process where you are fingerprinted in the same way that criminals are treated after having been arrested for a crime if you want to do readings for people legally as a business, which is why I only sell software in Nevada. It's Nevada's way of saying "we've got our eye on you, so behave and don't cause trouble".
The Nevada idea is interesting. Is this in case an astrologer today does a Broughton and tells someone a period of grave danger may occur. If this happened then the person may do all sorts of things in response which could put himself and others at risk.

I work in the 'care' business and if I was aware a vulnerable or impressionable person had been told this by an astrologer I would consider alerting the authorties, as it is a straightforward abuse of a persons mind.

This is taking us into astrological ethics territory but as least this is one way of ensuring astrologers keep the law at arms length. Particularly in places like the USA it seems where tolerance of this practice is currently more problematic.

32 by GR
Mike N wrote: The Nevada idea is interesting. Is this in case an astrologer today does a Broughton and tells someone a period of grave danger may occur.
No I imagine it's done with the intent that all astrologers are potential frauds and this is done to dissuade them, like they were "gypsy" tarot readers. Very icky.

Also, the idea that dangerous periods can be predicted is part of the traditional(tm) astrological practice, and while it shouldn't be done in a reckless manner, people do at times want to know such things. If they can seriously ask, they have responsibility for having the info.

I sorry, but I keep getting the impression that you've been on Skyscript before under a different name ... but it might be nothing.
Gabe

34 by Tom
Apparently, and I just did a cursory reading, the good professor referred to an astrology critic who wrote a perfectly idiotic debunking of astrology and it is this Phil Plait to whom our anger should be directed. Not that Plait has said anything others haven't said ad nauseum. Plait makes a plea for critical thinking, which apparently means thinking that agrees with his. He then goes about setting up a long winded straw man argument as evidence of his critical thinking skills.

35 by Mike N
GR wrote:
Mike N wrote:

Also, the idea that dangerous periods can be predicted is part of the traditional(tm) astrological practice, and while it shouldn't be done in a reckless manner, people do at times want to know such things. If they can seriously ask, they have responsibility for having the info.

Fair enough if it is done in a more advisory and sensible way. If it is given as certainty, or forcefully, then it will inevitably install a sense of impending doom in someones mind.

Seemingly the Nevada authorities aren't mainly focused on the 21st century ethical debates relating to the place of prediction in astrological consultations.

36 by zoidsoft
Rumor has it in Las Vegas that there was a feud between 2 astrologers decades ago and one of them had a connection to politics and drew up a law to make things difficult for the other astrologer. I vaguely remember some details of this from an NCGR meeting over at Eldorado Estates on the west side, but the exact details escape me at the moment. I suspect though that there had been developments in the mean time and because the casinos are big in the area and frown upon any sort of advantage one might try to use to even the odds against the house (even if they think its bunk), it is discouraged because Vegas had to fight to keep their gambling legal in some eras of its history (gaming was illegal for a while here around the 20's). Of course Vegas would not survive at all without gaming and so I think this stays on the books to help keep the gaming industry on the up and up and keep out potential riff raff.
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC
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