Hi Mark,

I think what Margherita is getting at is that when one of the Lights is the live-giving planet, the other Light can be anaretic in primary directions by conjunction & also the square or opposition.

GR wrote: I think what Margherita is getting at is that when one of the Lights is the live-giving planet, the other Light can be anaretic in primary directions by conjunction & also the square or opposition.

Merci, what I meant.

"In the prorogation which follows the order of following signs, the places of the maleficent planets, Saturn and Mars, destroy, whether they are approaching bodily, or project their rays......When the moon is the prorogator, the place of the sun also destroys"

Quadr., III,11

margherita

Eddy wrote:No offence taken Martin. Since I myself can be very critical, I sure accept a critical response towards me as long as it is scientifically well founded with reliable authors/scientific articles. To find historical truth it sometimes is necessary to cause some pain by demystification.

I didn't mean to be critical towards you, primarily, but rather towards the original author.

I don't know how closely you examined the article, did you read it (entirely)? If the quote scared you off immediately, please have a closer look at the article, it's not all devils and darkness.

I did have a look at the article, but didn't bother to read it all through. What I saw was quite enough. I'm afraid 'weird fantasy issues' describes it rather well. Anyway, I don't want to derail the topic completely, so I'll refrain from further comments.

I didn't take it personally Martin. Rather thanks for the notice. When looking for historical information, I usually try to be very careful not to get on anything nonsensical. I aim to find the facts of history, not spectacular speculations. I thought I had something reliable but probably I'd better only turn to sources found on jstor and other academic sites. Anyhow we'll let this topic take it's original direction.

Traditionally, an afflicted sun- would give a troubled eyesight, short stature or trouble with bones, troubles to father and from the King etc.

By afflicted are you talking about essential dignity, accidental dignity or both combined? I assume its a combination of both. I have a sun in Aquarius but its quite strongly placed by house and has no really difficult aspects. I cant relate to any of these issues except perhaps a difficult relationship with some of my line managers over the years. As I dont mingle with Kings much that makes sense.

Most of the predictions about individual in India is done by the sidereal Moon sign: the names are given by the alphabet ascribed to the quarter of the Lunar mansion, the nature described by the Moon sign and transits of Jupiter, Saturn and Nodes predicted by Moon sign itself.The Lunar masion numerical tally is also done for compatability testing.

As I understand it the Indian Lunar mansions are the equivalent of the Sun sign in popular Indian culture although even more prevalent. While I use a tropical zodiac I have found it interesting to look at key planets and angles in my chart and others through the Nakshatras too. To me a lunar zodiac only makes sense within a sidereal framework.

Mark

Firstly, most likely your Sun would be in sidereal capricorn.Detriment signs are not counted as affliction in Vedic or Indian astrology. Affliction would mean being in fall sign, aspects from saturn 3/7/10 or mars 1/7/8, placement in 6/8/12 houses.
navamsa or 9th harmonic is important as well.

mars does aspect the 8th sign from itself.
7th house aspect from natural benefics is good.
Saturn's third house aspect is not so good.

Moon signs are used for transits etc. and the nakshatras for compatibity, naming etc.

most commonly used precession value is Lahiri.

search for - jagannath hora or jhora as software, it is free and it can do most of the calculations.

PD

Firstly, most likely your Sun would be in sidereal capricorn.

Indeed it is. However, I have never been comfortable that I could have Aries rising or such cardinality as the sidereal zodiac suggests. All my life experience supports Taurus rising as suggested by the tropical zodiac.

Detriment signs are not counted as affliction in Vedic or Indian astrology.

Good point. The idea of planets being in detriment appears to be a medieval development in western astrology. Its not mentioned in hellenistic astrology either. I assume that is where Indian astrology got its approach from.

search for - jagannath hora or jhora as software, it is free and it can do most of the calculations.

Thanks. I already have Solar Fire software but I would like software that displays the Nakshatras. I cant recall if Solar Fire does this or not.

Mark

Margherita wrote:

I read Valens here and there so I ask Mark if there are some examples, or just general information? If so please, can you give some reference so I can read them to better understand the point?

Unfortunately, I was too busy to reply properly earlier. All I was really suggesting was that the sun could be seen as the natural significator for spiritual awareness in the same way the moon is used to describe the body. Naturally, we would also look at other factors such as planets in the the 9th house and its rulers.

The all seeing Sun, then, being truly fire-like and the light of the mind, the organ of perception of the soul, is significant at a birth for kingly office, hegemony, mind, practical wisdom, outward form, motion, height of fortune, public, registration, action, popular, leadership, judgement, father, mastership, friendship, person of high repute, the honors of images, statues, and crowns of office, arch-priests of the fatherland ... of places. Of the parts of the body, it has authority over the head, sense-organs, right-eye, ribs, heart, respiratory or sensory motion, tendons. It also has authority over the essence of gold, of fruits of wheat and barley. It is of the diurnal sect, lemon-yellow, and sharp as for taste.
The Anthology, Vettius Valens. Book 1:1, translated by Robert Schmidt

In a nativity the all-seeing sun, nature?s fire and intellectual light, the organ of mental perception, indicates kingship, rule, intellect, intelligence, beauty, motion, loftiness of fortune, the ordinance of the gods, judgement, public reputation, action, authority over the masses, the father, the master, friendship, noble personages, honors consisting of pictures, statues, and garlands, high priesthoods, rule over one?s country and over other places. Of the parts of the body, the sun rules the head; of the sense organs, it rules the right eye; of the trunk, it rules the heart; of the spiritual (i.e. the perceptive) faculties, the nerves. Of materials, it rules gold; of fruits, it rules wheat and barley. It is of the day sect, yellowish, bitter in taste.
The Anthology, Vettius Valens Book 1:1, translated by Mark Riley

Mark wrote: Unfortunately, I was too busy to reply properly earlier. All I was really suggesting was that the sun could be seen as the natural significator for spiritual awareness in the same way the moon is used to describe the body. Naturally, we would also look at other factors such as planets in the the 9th house and its rulers.

I'm not persuaded. To me this Valens text looks like many other texts of other Hellenistic astrologers.

When Ptolemy talks about the Moon as significator of the temperament together with Ascendant (as significators of the body), he explains how to use it.

Here there is nothing like that, just the general meaning of the planet.

margherita

I'm not persuaded. To me this Valens text looks like many other texts of other Hellenistic astrologers.

Its subtle I grant you but I think the meaning is quite explicit. I dont like being pedantic but I think I need to be here. Lets look at the quotes again with the relevant words highlighted.

The all seeing Sun, then, being truly fire-like and the light of the mind, the organ of perception of the soul, is significant at a birth for kingly office, hegemony, mind, practical wisdom, outward form, motion, height of fortune, public, registration, action, popular, leadership, judgement, father, mastership, friendship, person of high repute, the honors of images, statues, and crowns of office, arch-priests of the fatherland ... of places. Of the parts of the body, it has authority over the head, sense-organs, right-eye, ribs, heart, respiratory or sensory motion, tendons. It also has authority over the essence of gold, of fruits of wheat and barley. It is of the diurnal sect, lemon-yellow, and sharp as for taste.
The Anthology, Vettius Valens. Book 1:1, translated by Robert Schmidt

In a nativity the all-seeing sun, nature?s fire and intellectual light,the organ of mental perception, indicates kingship, rule, intellect, intelligence, beauty, motion, loftiness of fortune, the ordinance of the gods, judgement, public reputation, action, authority over the masses, the father, the master, friendship, noble personages, honors consisting of pictures, statues, and garlands, high priesthoods, rule over one?s country and over other places. Of the parts of the body, the sun rules the head; of the sense organs, it rules the right eye; of the trunk, it rules the heart; of the spiritual (i.e. the perceptive) faculties, the nerves. Of materials, it rules gold; of fruits, it rules wheat and barley. It is of the day sect, yellowish, bitter in taste.
The Anthology, Vettius Valens Book 1:1, translated by Mark Riley

Margherita wrote:

When Ptolemy talks about the Moon as significator of the temperament together with Ascendant (as significators of the body), he explains how to use it.

I would have thought these factors are much more easy to provide practical examples of. Outward physique and temperament are much easier considerations to describe than a person's relationship with the divine. Moreover, a lack of practical examples could be levelled at the bulk of traditional sources at our disposal!

I dont ask you to accept my position. However, you have not given a logical counter explanation of your own for some of the factors I have mentioned. To reiterate the fact hellenistic sources state that the sun has its joy in the spiritual 9th house. Why should that be? They also assign the lot of spirit ( associated with the higher mind , our will, and our spiritual nature) as 'the lot of the sun'. Why? Accident, coincidence? I dont think so.

Even medieval astrologers like Luis Ribeiro and Helena Avelar seem to accept this. In their new book they state of the Sun:

It represents the creative principle and is a symbol of the divine. The Heavenly Spheres: A Treatise on Traditional Astrology by Helena Avelar and Luis Ribeiro p32.

I have read ( correctly?) the medieval astrological symbol (glyph) for the Sun represents divine spirit (circle) surrounding the seed of potential.
The Indian astrological tradition was just as directly influenced by hellenistic astrology as the western medieval tradition. It also offers support to the notion that the Sun is a natural significator for the spiritual, Nous or higher mind. For example, in the Brihat Jakata, a 6th century astrological text written by the great Indian astrologer Var?hamihira we find the following descriptions of the astrological Sun:

May the Sun give us speech, who by his light illumines the Moon, who is the path of those who have no rebirth, who is the Atma of those who know the Atma, who is the Deva worshipped in sacrificial rites, who is the Lord of the Devas and of the Lights of the sky, who is the author of the origin, growth and annihilation of the worlds, who is sung in the Vedas in various ways, who is possessed of many rays and who forms the Lamp of the three worlds.
The Brihat Jakata by Var?hamihira , Chapter 1:1 translated by N. Chidambaramaiyar

. .. the Sun is the soul, the Moon is the mind, Mars is strength, Mercury is speech, Jupiter is knowledge and health, Venus is desire, and Saturn is sorrow. Of the planets, the Sun and the Moon are kings, Mars is general; Mercury is the first prince, Jupiter and Venus are counsellors and Saturn is servant. The Brihat Jakata by Var?hamihira , Chapter 2 translated by N. Chidambaramaiyar

This is clearly not the formula described Ptolemy in the Tetrabiblos where we are told the nature of the soul is represented by the the Moon and Mercury. Nevertheless, it does seem to represent a valid alternative strand in traditional astrology with equal authenticity.

Mark

Evangeline Adams had probably the most accurate ideas about the role of the Moon I`ve ever read. If you never read it, I may post some interesting materials from one of her books soon

Mark's reference to the Moon was in response to something that was said about the Sun in traditional astrology, which is the topic of this thread. He was not switching topics.

Secondly, although I enjoy her work, Evangeline Adams' work is not the kind of astrology usually discussed on this Forum. Her books, always ghostwritten, are closer to modern work and a discussion of her ideas on the Moon might be better placed on the general nativities forum.

Technical note: SolarFire does display Nakshatras - click on the Reports and Tabulations tab on the side, and in Tabulations just scroll down to - Nakshatras.