Moscow airport bombing on 24 Jan 2011 16.32 BAT Asc 3Leo05' once again shows that the Soviet Union chart is very valid chart:
Soviet Union: 8 Nov 1917 19.00 Leningrad Asc 6Leo08'.
Tansits:
Mars 180 radical Asc orb 37' and 180 Neptune 22'
Pluto 150 Asc orb 1'!
Converse transits (23 Aug 1824):
Pluto conjunct MC 8'
Saturn 60 Asc 58'
NN 150 Asc 32'
Primary directions in Topocentric: Mars 90 Uranus 1'
More dramatically are the PSSR aspects:
Mars 90 MC 10'
Mars 180 XII 0'
Moon 180 Mercury 0'
Moon 0 NN 20'
Moon 120 Mars 7'
Moon 90 VIII 14'
Moon 45 VIII 0'
Moon 45 SN 1'
Moon conjunct Pluto (solar position) 3': in the solar return, precession corrected, Moon is 0Cap50 and Pluto 3Cap35'. Progressing the Moon to 24 Jan it will be 3Cap 32'.
In the last solar eclipse Pluto exactly on MC and Saturn close to Desc.

At the moment of the bombing, helio Mercury in Scorpio is 90 helio Neptune in 8th orb 24'.

Isaac Starkman wrote:

Soviet Union chart is very valid chart:
Soviet Union: 8 Nov 1917 19.00 Leningrad Asc 6Leo08'

.

I haven't seen this chart proposed before.

What about the chart timed for the seizure of the Winter Palace at 2.12am on 08/11/1917?

Of this chart Nicholas Campion states:

''This is the central moment of the revolution representing both its actual irrevocable transfer of power in the capital and its central mythological icon''.

May I ask what event you are basing the 7.00pm chart on?

Looking at November 8th the only other event I would consider using as a national chart for the Soviet Union is the meeting of Second Congress of Soviets where Lenin and the Bolsheviks formally assumed power. At the meeting the Bolsheviks main rivals ( the Mensheviks and Social Revolutionary party delegates) walked out in protest against the previous events. Congress then approved the transfer of state authority into its own hands and local power into the hands of local soviets of workers', soldiers', and peasants' deputies. The Congress issued a decree on peace and decree on land, and then approved the formation of an all-Bolshevik government, the Council of People's Commissars (Sovnarkom), with Lenin as chairman.

Is this what you are basing your time of 7.00pm on? I assume you are relying on very accurate historical sources? Otherwise I dont see the point of using primary directions or solar return charts.

Mark

Mark wrote:Isaac Starkman wrote:

Soviet Union chart is very valid chart:
Soviet Union: 8 Nov 1917 19.00 Leningrad Asc 6Leo08'

.

I haven't seen this chart proposed before.

What about the chart timed for the seizure of the Winter Palace at 2.12am on 08/11/1917?

Of this chart Nicholas Campion states:

''This is the central moment of the revolution representing both its actual irrevocable transfer of power in the capital and its central mythological icon''.

May I ask what event you are basing the 7.00pm chart on?

Looking at November 8th the only other event I would consider using as a national chart for the Soviet Union is the meeting of Second Congress of Soviets where Lenin and the Bolsheviks formally assumed power. At the meeting the Bolsheviks main rivals ( the Mensheviks and Social Revolutionary party delegates) walked out in protest against the previous events. Congress then approved the transfer of state authority into its own hands and local power into the hands of local soviets of workers', soldiers', and peasants' deputies. The Congress issued a decree on peace and decree on land, and then approved the formation of an all-Bolshevik government, the Council of People's Commissars (Sovnarkom), with Lenin as chairman.

Is this what you are basing your time of 7.00pm on?

Mark

Exactly. This is Alexander Marr's rectification (he used 19.00.02 UT). He investigated the history of Soviet Union very deeply as he was familiar with the Russian language. He actually published 3 workable charts, but this one, for the moment Lenin announced the revolution of the Bolsheviks in the second Parliament meeting is the best. He published this chart in his book Political Astrology in 1988.
I checked this chart in the last 23 years and I see that it is still valid chart.
See also www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5247

He published this chart in his book Political Astrology in 1988.

Most of his books seem to be out of print now. I have spotted a few books on predictive astrology by him on ABE but unfortunately not his book on political astrology. A shame its not been reprinted. Did the American Federation of Astrologers originally publish it? It might be worth writing to them to reconsider publishing the work. Marr seems to have been a champion of primary directions long before the recent revivial of interest in the technique.

I had assumed Alexander Marr was a siderealist but I see from an old post of your this is mistaken:

In all his books and articles Alexander Marr never used the Sidereal Zodiac like Cyril Fagan or Brigadier Firebrance, the editor of Spica. Indeed, he took some of their techniques and applied them into the Tropical Zodiac, like Fagan's PSSR system.
I quote from the foreword of Marr's book Prediction I:
The discoveries of the eminent astrologer Cyril Fagan split the astrological world into three main camps: Tropical, Sidereal, and what the late Brigadier Firebrance termed "Little Bastard Zodiac", where precession is expunged from charts whilst maintaining the tropical zodiac?I hope to persuade Siderealists that transits to the radix should be applied in the tropical manner, that is, disregarding precession. However, in regard to return charts, both Tropical and Sidereal Solar Returns are valid."
Marr wrote many articles in Spica, the Sidereal journal, because it was at that time the only journal that agreed to publish his articles. That could be the source for the error of classifying him as siderealist

.

Astrology Centre of America do seem to stock a couple of Marr's books:

Prediction Using Common & Prenatal Cycles. Also I see you co-authored a book with him: Astrologers, Kings, Politicians & Others.I also understand your Polaris software system is largely based on Marr's techniques. One can also pick up a couple of his other books from ABE books.

http://www.astroamerica.com/author.html

Mark

Mark wrote:

He published this chart in his book Political Astrology in 1988.

Most of his books seem to be out of print now. I have spotted a few books on predictive astrology by him on ABE but unfortunately not his book on political astrology. A shame its not been reprinted. Did the American Federation of Astrologers originally publish it? It might be worth writing to them to reconsider publishing the work. Marr seems to have been a champion of primary directions long before the recent revivial of interest in the technique.


Mark

Three of Marr's books, including Political Astrology, were published by Ediciones SIRIO in Argentina, the publishing firm by the late eminent astrologer Eloy Dumon. As far as I know it not longer exist. It is a pity that the most important of Marr's books (including Prediction II published by AFA) are long out of print. Someone from Canada wrote me that he want to put them as PDF files in the internet. Meanwhile, anyone who wants them I can send a photocopy for the price of the photocopy and delivery.

As far as I know the Soviet Union came into being in December 1922, the 31st (or 30th ?).
It was dissolved in the years following the collapse of the Berlin Wall.
I do not mean to say that the chart does not work. But it is the chart of the revolution, not of the Soviet Union.
Why it cannot be the chart of the Soviet Union: in 1917 Lenin still believed that the world revolution would soon follow - so there would be no need for a "soviet state".

The present sec.progressions. Remember that transits over progressions may be extremely strong - see IC:
LL

As far as I know the Soviet Union came into being in December 1922, the 31st (or 30th ?). It was dissolved in the years following the collapse of the Berlin Wall. I do not mean to say that the chart does not work. But it is the chart of the revolution, not of the Soviet Union.
Why it cannot be the chart of the Soviet Union: in 1917 Lenin still believed that the world revolution would soon follow - so there would be no need for a "soviet state".

Hello Lunlumo,

Interesting point! I had missed this legal technicality. It?s a bit like the debate over the USA chart isn?t it? Do we go for a seed moment i.e the declaration of independence or use the chart corresponding to the modern polity? There is no denying the revolution is the seed moment that brought the Bolshevik state into existence. Still, as you correctly point out the political institutions of the Soviet Union only date from 1922. Following the same logic in the case of the USA that would mean we had to use a chart dating from March 4, 1789, when the newly formed US Federal government began operations. Personally, I use both the Sibly and Federal USA charts. However, I have also found a chart for the first continental congress works well too.

Of course in the case of Russia specifically we now have the new state of the Russian Federation that came into existence in 1991. So we have at minimum 4 charts that could be argued out for modern Russia! This kind of underlines the problem with trying to suggest one national chart can sum up everything. There was an interesting discussion on exactly this point recently on the thread discussing Ireland where I highlighted the ideas of the Irish astrologer Bill Sheeran. He argues quite convincingly I think for looking at several national charts since the development of a state is usually a combination of events and processes not one single event. For example, in regards the United Kingdom I tend to look at both the 1801 and 1927 charts. For issues involving Scotland I may also check the 1707 Act of Union chart. The chart for the coronation of William can also be very sensitive to English events. Its especially useful in relation to the UK Royal family.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5830

Personally, I am also interested in looking at foundational ingress charts. However, that isn?t free of its problems either as its often quite debateable what date to choose as with national charts.

Mark

Hi Mark,
I can only agree - e.g. with respect to the US-chart - an endless debate... Although I strongly prefer the Sibley-chart I have to accept the fact that other charts have a lot to say as well.
Maybe in a way only independence charts like the one of India seem to be without any "rivals". This is the case with lots of former colonies: 0:00 midnight local time - down the old, up the new flag - a new state is born.

I've got three charts for France, two for Spain, two for Italy, three for GB and at least three for Germany...etc. (Concerning the UK-chart: I agree it's worth looking at, might even be more importat than the 1801 chart.)
However, there always seems to be one chart that matters most, so it should be given priority.

Back to the USSR (that old Beatles's song...)
Apart from Ingresses - notably the Vernal ingress, conjunctions preceding the coming into being of a new state have a lot to say.

SAT/NE, 1st August, 1917, St.Petersburg (or Petrograd as ist was called at that time):
When Stalin died there was the follwong SAT/NE conjunction. The one in 1989 was precise in the days of the fall of the Berlin Wall - exactly at 10,x degrees Capricorn - that's precisely where the Moon is in the chart above .

LL

Maybe in a way only independence charts like the one of India seem to be without any "rivals". This is the case with lots of former colonies: 0:00 midnight local time - down the old, up the new flag - a new state is born.

Your thinking of the chart for the dissolution of British rule on August 15th 1947? Even with India we have another contender in the 1950 chart! On 26 January 1950, India became a republic and a new constitution came into effect under which the country was established as a secular and democratic state.

From wikipedia:

Although India obtained its independence on 15 August 1947, it did not yet have a permanent constitution; instead, its laws were based on the modified colonial Government of India Act 1935, and the country was a Dominion, with George VI as head of state and Earl Mountbatten as Governor General. On 28 August 1947, the Drafting Committee was appointed to draft a permanent constitution, with Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar as chairman. While India's Independence Day celebrates its freedom from British Rule, the Republic Day celebrates the coming into force of its constitution.

A draft constitution was prepared by the committee and submitted to the Assembly on 4 November 1947. The Assembly met, in sessions open to public, for 166 days, spread over a period of 2 years, 11 months and 18 days before adopting the Constitution. After many deliberations and some modifications, the 308 members of the Assembly signed two hand-written copies of the document (one each in Hindi and English) on 24 January 1950. Two days later, the Constitution of India became the law of all the Indian lands. The Constitution of India was passed on 26 November 1949, 10.18 AM IST, but it came into effect completely only on 26th January, 1950. Following elections on 21 January 1950, Rajendra Prasad was elected as the president of India. The Indian National Congress and other parties had been celebrating 26 January as a symbol of Independence, even before India actually became independent. Thus, applying the constitution on 26 January, to mark and respect 26 January and the freedom struggle and the freedom fighters.

Here is a link to where both national charts for India are displayed.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/countries/india.php

Mark