yuzuru wrote:
... I am not impressed by the results. It may be me, of course, but I think there are better ways to magic. I am more impressed by the use of sublunar spirits.

I would be very interested to hear more of what you mean here. Are you talking about ritual magic as set out in works like The Greater Key of Solomon?

GR wrote:
I do agree, there's something missing about the Arabic astrological magic, but I'm not sure what, other than getting ahold of one's personal genius first?

On an astrological basis the tropical lunar mansions have never made any sense to me. Ok the Picatrix, Agrippa and Ramesey all used the tropical lunar mansions. Still its clear they were originally sidereal and irregular in size. We see that in texts such as Al Biruni. The sidereal lunar mansions feel right to me for what is after all a lunar not a solar zodiac.

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/mansionslunar.html

Mark

Mark & Mithra -

Everything in my chart is afflicted one way or another (usually several), which is perhaps why I pay more attention to it when making talismans. Venus, thankfully, is only afflicted by being cadent, and fortunately it's in 3, plus it has insane essential dignity and is only a couple of minutes away from a nice fixed star, so it's not a horrible affliction.

Jupiter's got an opposition and retrogradation, but it's also got some essential dignity and support from other planets, and is angular and conjunct a couple of good fixed stars. It'll work for me sometimes.

With this talisman, there was a dash of magic before, and a lot afterwards, but - it happens like that sometimes.

My best talisman was the Jupiter-Venus one I lost. It was loosely based on Agrippa-style magic, and the elections all the way through it (time to pick the herbs, make the oils and incenses used, etc) were meticulous, though it was Liz doing the herbs, incense, and oils as I was homeless at the time - as in living in the streets kind of homeless, after an accident immediately followed by a political coup. It was not a good time to be seriously injured.

Fortunately I was able to work after seven months or so. Unfortunately, things like minimum wages and work safety laws went out the window - I was making less in a week than what you'd need to survive for a day here if you planned to eat and sleep indoors. It was all taking its toll on my general health, which has always been bad, but was rapidly going horrific.

I'd no idea how I was going to do this thing, even though I desperately needed the talisman.

For those who hate magic, close your eyes now. An old friend overseas who's always had a locating gift woke up in the middle of the night, realised I was in trouble, knew exactly where I was, got onto IRC, and by some (coincidence?) found a rich woman near here and charmed her - and told her about me and where to find me.

Step one.

She came and collected me - it was funny - drove right to the street where I was and asked if I was indeed - me. She explained about my friend, and ended up taking me in for a bit.

Step two.

I had a base of operations. I quit the job that I'd been working at 14 hours a day, 7 days per week. That was just too much to go on with. Bus fare to get there and back from where I was staying would've been more expensive than what I was making. And I hated the place.

Since I had an address, Liz sent me the oils and incenses I'd need - the rest of the ingredients I could gather myself.

Did the ritual - it was for money, mostly concentrating on buying my own place. Even that isn't terribly secure here, but it's as secure as you're going to get. I half-believe I will not get near what I'm asking for, but push through it anyway.

The talisman comes out perfectly, I know it's worked, and I start wearing it.

Step three.

Watched the news the night afterwards, saw a political protester being interviewed after he'd got out of gaol (they still used to show things like that sometimes, they don't now that friends of the government own all of the media here), and realised - this is the bloke it happens through. No idea how I knew, or why, but decided I'd better find him. That took a couple of days, but it did happen. For some - to this day unfathomable reason - I proceed to tell him the truth.

NB: Even in those days, I wasn't in the habit of relying on television news reports, so I never turned them on - but I did that night.

He thought I was nuts, though not in a dangerous or creepy way, thankfully. But he was kind, bought me lunch, and took my phone number.

The next day I get a call from him, because he's heard from someone who knows someone that the last co-op built before co-ops became illegal here had one opening, cos they'd just had to throw someone out for vandalising the place. And he thought that I'd be a shoe-in for it on account of both being disabled and having a fair few degrees and certifications in various professional fields, and having the accident and the political stuff happening, I just got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. He is more than a bit freaked at the coincidence of it all since he's a die-hard materialist, but he's okay with it, so that's good.

I call the co-op, and get an interview. Me and over 400 other folks. But they really really like me. Enough to stop the interviewing process.

Step four.

After a year and a half of waiting, I finally get a small disability pension the government has been stalling on. I also get the flat, but can in no way pay for the requisite amount of co-op shares.

This miraculously gets cut down to 10% of the normal share price by the co-op board, and wonder of wonders I find a bank that'll give me a mortgage for it.

This Does Not Happen Here. Believe me.

All within two weeks of the talisman. Spent the next few years gambling professionally, as there wasn't much in the way of work here. I don't have a chart for wealth, and I've got far too many poverty indicators, so I was careful - but it worked out and I was able to support myself. Always kept the talisman with me for that, and it wasn't bad - I made about the equivalent of $30k US per year. Far from rich, but also not dirt-poor.

I did get deathly sick again with another round of the joys of genetic illnesses and Algol all over your chart, and it was sometime during one of the surgical interludes for that that the talisman got lost. Money has been a huge issue ever since then. And no, I don't gamble anymore, it'd be pointless now.

I just plain don't get money luck. Not the kind that goes from homeless to being able to buy a flat and support myself. Only it all worked out that I did.

I've had other good luck with talismans, but that is definitely THE talisman story.

Thank you very much Olivia for being so frank and detailed. Its not often people are so open about their lives here on Skyscript. While I understand members who wish to retain their privacy on a public forum like this I really appreciate such a remarkably candid post. I certainly hadn't come across this account on Skyscript before.

Thanks

Mark

Olivia wrote: Everything in my chart is afflicted one way or another (usually several), which is perhaps why I pay more attention to it when making talismans. Venus, thankfully, is only afflicted by being cadent, and fortunately it's in 3, plus it has insane essential dignity and is only a couple of minutes away from a nice fixed star, so it's not a horrible affliction.

The deal-breaker is essential dignity/debility. A cadent or even peregrine planet is ok. Difficult aspects with malefics is a bit of caution, but not a deal-breaker.

I would be very interested to hear more of what you mean here. Are you talking about ritual magic as set out in works like The Greater Key of Solomon?

Hi, Mark

In a neo-platonic, hermetical framework, we would have celestial spirits and sub-lunar spirits. The planetary inteligences are considered celestial. All the spirits that are more terrestrial in nature, closer to our plane, would be sub-lunar. This is not a moral consideration: saints would be considered as sub-lunar.

Spirits can also be divided by element (if sub lunar), "hot" vs "cool", chtonic vs ouronic, etc.

I was not refering the nature of the lunar mansions, but of their spirits... to me it is clear they are sub lunar in their natures and by their offices. But, in my opinion, the mansions of the moon are tropical and regular (the same way that nakshatras are sideral and regular - none of the systems is constelational), and the lunar mansions should not be confused with the ancient asterisms used by the arabs. The same way that constellations are not signs, the asterisms are not the lunar mansions, but an imperfect earlier representation.

I used to practise within a group setting. We would meet early on saturday evenings so that we could go clubbing later. Even better we would do the rituals at the club by passing it off as entertainment. Astrological timings did not come into it. We had impressive results nonetheless.

Secondly the teachers saw contradictions in the timing methods, perhaps through misunderstanding. There were thought to be two systems of calculating planetary hours before you even looked at the stars. Magicians simply did not do astrology, but having said that when I did at least try electing for charging a talisman and doing the spell under the light of the star it seemed to be marginally more effective than not.

As to planetary magic I do follow Christopher Warnock and his site but is is still a early to say if this works better or not.

I would add that it takes a lot of time and effort and you can manage without it.

Matt

Mithra 6 wrote:

Experiences: I've made several talismans, planetary, fixed stars, and horary-based (i.e. topic based). By far the most dramatic result was my first one, which was for Jupiter. I had been out of a job for months, and after doing the talisman, I had three job offers within two days.

Well my natal Jupiter is quite strong being in sect, right on the ascendant and has some dignity being in term (I have no planets in domicile or exaltation) so if I was going to try anything this sounds a good go. The other option is my Venus which is on the MC and in its triplicity. They are in a partile trine so I suppose a Jupiter-Venus Talisman makes sense.

However, everything about fixed stars interests me so I would really like to learn more on fixed star talismans. Vivian Robson does talk about the 16 Behenian fixed stars and shows their symbols. I assume I can find out more in Agrippa? Does Christopher Warnock include fixed stars in his astrological magic course?

Mark

Warnock has some fixed stars talismans for sale, you can consult his website.

Yuzuru wrote:

In a neo-platonic, hermetical framework, we would have celestial spirits and sub-lunar spirits. The planetary inteligences are considered celestial. All the spirits that are more terrestrial in nature, closer to our plane, would be sub-lunar. This is not a moral consideration: saints would be considered as sub-lunar. Spirits can also be divided by element (if sub lunar), "hot" vs "cool", chtonic vs ouronic, etc.

Hello Yuzuru,

Thats very interesting. What sources are you getting this from? I would be interested in taking a deeper look at this. chtonic and ouronic are both new words to me!

Yuzuru wrote:

I was not refering the nature of the lunar mansions, but of their spirits... to me it is clear they are sub lunar in their natures and by their offices. But, in my opinion, the mansions of the moon are tropical and regular (the same way that nakshatras are sideral and regular - none of the systems is constelational), and the lunar mansions should not be confused with the ancient asterisms used by the arabs. The same way that constellations are not signs, the asterisms are not the lunar mansions, but an imperfect earlier representation.

We are clearly coming at things from a very different position on the mansions. Your suggestion that the tropical mansions have no connection to their sidereal predecessors seems very odd to me.

There is really no denying the mansions started off as sidereal, irregular and yes as asterisms. Even Christpher Warnock (who prefers the tropical mansions) acknowledges this point in his book Mansions of the Moon.
At some point they became systematized into equal mansions and they were fitted into a tropical zodiac scheme. Still, we retain the original names for lunar mansions based on fixed stars and asterisms which no longer relate to them.

I know my point sounds similar to that of a sidereal astrologer arguing vs the tropical zodiac. However, I think the mansions and the 12 sign zodiac are quite different. The 12 sign zodiac makes perfect sense as a tropical zodiac fitting into the cycles of the Sun. The Arabic lunar mansions were (and in my view should remain) lunar mansions based on tracking the Moon against the backdrop of these asterisms. This makes them very similar to the Nakshatras (which were also originally unequal in size). The Chinese lunar mansions are still unequal in size.

Mark

What astrological sources are you getting this from?

Hmmm, astrological? Most of the discussion was about magic :-P

You can learn more about neo-platonic in Hermes Trimegistus, and I think Plotinus (haven?t read it yet). Division of spirits in hot and cool, I believe is from Haiti. I don?t know the origin of "chtonic/ouranic".

Still, we retain the original names for lunar mansions based on fixed stars and asterisms which no longer relate to them.

Yes, but also the signs have the same names of constellations with which they are no longer near to.

This makes them very similar to the Nakshatras (which were also originally unequal in size).

They may be unequal in size at some time (also apparently there were 28 nakshatras at a time), but the truth is that today, the nakshatras belong to the vedic system, beginning in their 0 Aries (meaning they are sideral, but they are not constellational), they are equal in size, and are connected to other elements of traditional jyiotish.

To say that the nakshatras were unequal in size at one time is apparently not enough to convince the jyotish that they are using the "wrong" lunar mansions, I wonder why us westerns are always looking for complications :-)

The Chinese lunar mansions still are unequal in size.

Yes, but chinese astrology is a very different system both from western and jyotish astrology.

But I suggest we don?t diverge the discussion any more.

But I suggest we don?t diverge the discussion any more.

Personally I dont see this as a digression myself. We are discussing astrological magic and the lunar mansions play an important part in many of the texts discussing this.

You can learn more about neo-platonic in Hermes Trimegistus, and I think Plotinus (haven?t read it yet). Division of spirits in hot and cool, I believe is from Haiti. I don?t know the origin of "chtonic/ouranic".

Ok. Your including Vodooo? Wow and I thought you were a strict traditionalist.

Mark wrote:
Still, we retain the original names for lunar mansions based on fixed stars and asterisms which no longer relate to them.

Yuzuru wrote:

Yes, but also the signs have the same names of constellations with which they are no longer near to.

I already answered that objection in my last post.

Mark wrote:

This makes them very similar to the Nakshatras (which were also originally unequal in size).

They may be unequal in size at some time (also apparently there were 28 nakshatras at a time), but the truth is that today, the nakshatras belong to the vedic system, beginning in their 0 Aries (meaning they are sideral, but they are not constellational), they are equal in size, and are connected to other elements of traditional jyiotish.

To say that the nakshatras were unequal in size at one time is apparently not enough to convince the jyotish that they are using the "wrong" lunar mansions, I wonder why us westerns are always looking for complications :-)

Its not 'complications' its the historical facts. I thought traditionalists liked history? However, I concede your point that the Nakshatras have been equal at least since the introduction of Greek astrology to India. I never suggested the Nakshatras were 'wrong'. Simply that they have altered over time. Still, they have retained roots in sidereal reality.

Mark

Ok. Your including Vodooo? Wow and I thought you were a strict traditionalist

"Tradition" in magic can have a very different meaning of what (I believe) you are aiming for.
The living traditions are not less traditional than the death traditions, so haiti?s voodoo is not less "Traditional" than say the greeks tables of cursing rituals