Clelia Romano wrote: Your explanation made me laugh!

Interesting that Schmidt thinks about the relationship of the ruler and the planet in this way.

I actually think that the opposite occurs: the domicile lord is responsible for the intention and the planet in his house is the matter he uses to accomplish his ends.
Mars in Libra is in a difficult position because Venus will use him to represent Venus ideas, and Mars is not able to do that: he does not like to balance between the sides, he is apt for war and not for diplomacy.

My idea is based in the aristotelian philosophy ( and Medieval astrology is strongly based in Aristotle).
I have to use my extra hardrive to pick up a little text that I wrote about this, and the computer I am using now is unable to read the USB driver. I?ll translate the text and send you later!

Clelia

A domicile lord (oikodektor) can be a formal cause in the same way (by providing as a host). I don't think that they are at odds here but complementary.

Hand used to talk about the four Aristotelian causes at the PHASE conclaves back in the mid 90's (after being coached by Robert Schmidt on the subject). I remember a very funny moment at the 1996 PHASE Conclave where there were 4 panelists debating Platonism and Plotinus, etc and each took on one of the 4 views on some subject (I forgot what). The conversation ended up being a dialog between Schmidt representing Plato and an Ithaca area expert on Plotinus and and some other guy. Most of the crowd seemed to be having a hard time following the conversation and Hand was silent for what seemed to be about an hour and then when the panel reached a pausing point... Hand said: "It looks like I'm the earth sign of the group". The whole crowd broke out laughing. I think most of the crowd couldn't follow the logic very well, but in over 2 hours it was the only thing that made the whole room laugh.

Clelia Romano wrote:.
And I think that it makes sense to suppose that the guest has to obey the rules of the owner of the house, not the opposite.

That is in fact what an oikodektor does. But Valens says the malefics turn violent.

Hand used to talk about the four Aristotelian causes at the PHASE conclaves back in the mid 90's (after being coached by Robert Schmidt on the subject). I remember a very funny moment at the 1996 PHASE Conclave where there were 4 panelists debating Platonism and Plotinus, etc and each took on one of the 4 views on some subject (I forgot what). The conversation ended up being a dialog between Schmidt representing Plato and an Ithaca area expert on Plotinus and and some other guy. Most of the crowd seemed to be having a hard time following the conversation and Hand was silent for what seemed to be about an hour and then when the panel reached a pausing point... Hand said: "It looks like I'm the earth sign of the group". The whole crowd broke out laughing. I think most of the crowd couldn't follow the logic very well, but in over 2 hours it was the only thing that made the whole room laugh.

Hello Curtis:

Very nice story! This kind of memories are precious, not to mention that it is really funny to imagine the scenary! I would like so much to have been there!

regards

Cl?lia

zoidsoft wrote:

Clelia Romano wrote:.
And I think that it makes sense to suppose that the guest has to obey the rules of the owner of the house, not the opposite.

That is in fact what an oikodektor does. But Valens says the malefics turn violent.

What I should say is that the texts use different words such as "oikodektor", "krator", "despotes", etc... that represent what a planet is doing in the chart. Each is a role that a planet fulfills in the process of deliberating. The domicile lord is in fact a lord most of the time, but sometimes it is the steward of the sign, especially when the exaltation lord can claim lordship of the sign in question. In that case the domicile lord is reduced in rank to "steward". Schmidt says that is the reason that most of the joys fall in places were there is no exaltation (Mars prefers Scorpio to Aries, Jupiter prefers Sag to Pisces, Saturn prefers Aquarius to Capricorn, all because they are obligated as a host to lay out the red carpet for the exaltation lord which becomes the true lord in those places (assuming the planets are so positioned to do so).

The domicile lord is in fact a lord most of the time, but sometimes it is the steward of the sign, especially when the exaltation lord can claim lordship of the sign in question. In that case the domicile lord is reduced in rank to "steward".

Yes, I remember perfectly of this issue.

Schmidt says that is the reason that most of the joys fall in places were there is no exaltation (Mars prefers Scorpio to Aries, Jupiter prefers Sag to Pisces, Saturn prefers Aquarius to Capricorn, all because they are obligated as a host to lay out the red carpet for the exaltation lord which becomes the true lord in those places (assuming the planets are so positioned to do so

Very interesting the complimentary explanation about the preference for certain signs instead of others.
But most important is the fact that Mars is a nocturnal planet, so he prefers Scorpio, and Jupiter is diurnal, so he prefers Sagittarius.

:-)

Clelia

Clelia Romano wrote:

Schmidt says that is the reason that most of the joys fall in places were there is no exaltation (Mars prefers Scorpio to Aries, Jupiter prefers Sag to Pisces, Saturn prefers Aquarius to Capricorn, all because they are obligated as a host to lay out the red carpet for the exaltation lord which becomes the true lord in those places (assuming the planets are so positioned to do so

Very interesting the complimentary explanation about the preference for certain signs instead of others.
But most important is the fact that Mars is a nocturnal planet, so he prefers Scorpio, and Jupiter is diurnal, so he prefers Sagittarius.

:-)

Clelia

Sect is the reason why this is the case. A masculine planet does not want to share power and lay out red carpets if it can keep power for itself. Notice a masculine planet in the sign of it's own sect has no exaltation obligation (Jupiter - Sag, Saturn = Aqu, Mars = Sco, Sun = Leo). Mercury swings both ways (androgynous). Venus and the Moon are feminine and both are subject to exaltation chores. Venus exalts 2 planets and notice that the Sun exalts no one. Venus (of the nocturnal party) punishes the Sun (of the diurnal party) for being selfish by exalting his enemy (Saturn) in Libra. The Sun and Saturn are light and dark, inimical to each other.

Some question why there are 5 masculine planets and 2 feminine planets but I think the real lineup is like this:

Masculine:

Sun
Jupiter
Mars

Feminine:

Saturn
Venus
Moon

And Mercury sits on the fence.

Saturn is said to be the planet of "feigned appearance". Age and darkness obscure our sex. Saturn is of the diurnal sect is like a spy disguising its appearance, but because Saturn has no things of its own (it signifies other peoples children and manages the estates of others) it is doing for the diurnal sect what it can't do for itself. Saturn has no children, few friends, so it meddles in the affairs of others, even of the other sect. So Saturn is really feminine, but appears as masculine.

Valens puts it aptly: Mars signifies falls on ones back and Saturn signifies falls on ones face. The first is due to hostility being pushed away. The latter is due to agnoia of not being careful enough about where one is going. One is yang and the other yin... Notice that Saturn is said to be downcast and looking towards the ground while walking; now you know why.

I was trying to write this post many times but an ant in my keyboard really disturbed me so much to the point that I pressed a key and everything went away. I hope she is dead now

Hello again!

A masculine planet does not want to share power and lay out red carpets if it can keep power for itself. Notice a masculine planet in the sign of it's own sect has no exaltation obligation (Jupiter - Sag, Saturn = Aqu, Mars = Sco, Sun = Leo). Mercury swings both ways (androgynous). Venus and the Moon are feminine and both are subject to exaltation chores. Venus exalts 2 planets and notice that the Sun exalts no one. Venus (of the nocturnal party) punishes the Sun (of the diurnal party) for being selfish by exalting his enemy (Saturn) in Libra. The Sun and Saturn are light and dark, inimical to each other.

Hellenistic astrology is full of thrilled explanations!

Some question why there are 5 masculine planets and 2 feminine planets but I think the real lineup is like this:

I asked this question many times, and during a time I imagined that Ibn Ezra was right about Mars being feminine.

Masculine:

Sun
Jupiter
Mars

Feminine:

Saturn
Venus
Moon

And Mercury sits on the fence.

Saturn is said to be the planet of "feigned appearance". Age and darkness obscure our sex. Saturn is of the diurnal sect is like a spy disguising its appearance, but because Saturn has no things of its own (it signifies other peoples children and manages the estates of others) it is doing for the diurnal sect what it can't do for itself. Saturn has no children, few friends, so it meddles in the affairs of others, even of the other sect. So Saturn is really feminine, but appears as masculine.

My first emotion when I read your post was: Curtis is right!!!

Valens has the most intriguing description of Saturn: Saturn is the master of disguise, of the make up that people use to look better, masks and costumes, theater, etc?
I?m seeing in front of me a woman who is not young, uses heavy make up, dresses for the day like if for a gala party, many jewels, strong perfume?and well, she looks like a man, a transvestite or a drag queen! This woman I?m recalling has Jupiter and Venus in Aquarius squaring the Moon in Scorpio and Saturn in Virgo squaring the Sun in Sagittarius. Saturn is her almutem figuris.

Valens puts it aptly: Mars signifies falls on ones back and Saturn signifies falls on ones face. The first is due to hostility being pushed away. The latter is due to agnoia of not being careful enough about where one is going. One is yang and the other yin... Notice that Saturn is said to be downcast and looking towards the ground while walking; now you know why

.

I have a complimentary way to explain it: Mars falls on his back, because the hostility and courage of Mars is evident and you only can stop him if you hit him badly: a warrior only gives up if he is knocked down.
Saturn in the opposite way is extremely cautious, he looks to the ground fearing to fall, but even looking he is not able to ?see?.

Thanks for the post! I really liked it!

Cl?lia

Some question why there are 5 masculine planets and 2 feminine planets but I think the real lineup is like this:

Well, this is not so much of a guess... Dorotheus said that in the first pages of his book. I am traveling so dont have the exact page, but it is in the first few pages.

Hello!

yuzuru wrote:

Some question why there are 5 masculine planets and 2 feminine planets but I think the real lineup is like this:

Well, this is not so much of a guess... Dorotheus said that in the first pages of his book. I am traveling so dont have the exact page, but it is in the first few pages.

Dorotheus said in the 5th page of his Carmen Astrologicum:

"Saturn harms one who is born by day and Mars one who is born at night ? then especially if Mars is in a feminine sign and Saturn in a masculine sign."

This statement seems to have appeared out of nowhere and gives no explanation at all. Dorotheus do not say clearly that Mars is masculine and diurnal and Saturn is feminine and nocturnal.
He do says that Saturn affects more diurnal births and if it is in masculine signs and Mars in nocturnal births and in feminine signs.

However, then Dorotheus says: ?They are better if They Are in One of Their Dignities.?

But the greatest dignities of Saturn are in Aquarius, Capricorn and Libra. Of these, two are masculine signs. Mars, by contrast, has dignity in Aries, Scorpio and Capricorn, and two of these signs are feminine!

It is controversial!

I think this text confuses more than clarifies.
Maybe could be a corrupted text, but there is no translator's note from Pingree about this posiibility.

As the work was a poem, perhaps Dorotheus cared about the rhyme, losing some of the content

have a good trip, Yazuru!
Cl?lia

No, its not that. He says the planets are divided between masculine and femenine: masculine planets are the sun, mars and jupiter, and the femenine are moon, venus and saturn.

Which, by the way, is the "sect division" that came to Vedic astrology

best regards

yuzuru wrote:No, its not that. He says the planets are divided between masculine and femenine: masculine planets are the sun, mars and jupiter, and the femenine are moon, venus and saturn.

Which, by the way, is the "sect division" that came to Vedic astrology

best regards

humm... I can?t find this sect division in the book: when you?re able please give the page and quotation.

Clelia

yuzuru wrote:

Some question why there are 5 masculine planets and 2 feminine planets but I think the real lineup is like this:

Well, this is not so much of a guess... Dorotheus said that in the first pages of his book. I am traveling so dont have the exact page, but it is in the first few pages.

It was a guess for me. I have not seen this stated elsewhere.