Mark wrote:
Astrology is founded on the symbolic perspective of living on this planet not on the Sun.

Four Pillars wrote:
Exactly my reason why I associate Capricorn with North.
Our planet is tilted to the North when the Sun is in Cap.
My perspective is on the planet.

Hello Danny,

That is not really what I was getting at at all. What I meant by 'geocentric' was a system that could be observed from the earth. In particular I was emphasizing symbolism that may very well be visual in origin. Your idea of 'north' is purely astronomical/mathematical but not visual in any sense. This contrasts starkly to the point I made about the Sun's declination leaving it lower and lower in the winter sky. Even people without sophisticated astronomical understanding could see that. I think this notion is very ancient and may well have a sidereal basis too which predates the adoption of the tropical zodiac.

In his book Babylonian Star Lore Gavin White suggests the exaltations of Jupiter (Cancer) and Mars (Capricorn) very probably relate to the location of these constellations in the ecliptic.

The location of Jupiter's Exaltation is found between the constellations of the Crab and the Lion (Cancer and Leo) on the most northerly section of the ecliptic, where it's rising coincides with the summer solstice. Jupiter is considered to be the most auspicious planet, indeed the 'King of the Planets'.

Mars has its Exaltation among the stars that rise at the winter solstice. As the most malevolent planet his special station has probably been placed on the lowest sector of the ecliptic to nullify his detrimental influence.

The most benefic planet Jupiter seems preferred in the most northern part of the ecliptic (Cancer) where it is most powerful and able to do good. The malefic planet Mars is preferred in the most southern part of the ecliptic(Capricorn) where its malefic influence will presumably be mitigated. The seasonal symbolism is obvious too with the hot and dry malefic Mars 'exalted' at the coldest and wettest time of the year. This reminds me of the Greek idea of planetary sect and assigning Mars to the night sect where its hot and dry nature is mitigated by the coolness and moisture of the night. We know the Babylonians noted the naked eye rising of these planets in the constellations.

You are therefore asking an incredible amount of western astrologers to reverse their tradition of identifying Cancer with the North and Capricorn with South. In short you want to reverse an astrological tradition that seems to go back to ancient Mesopotamia. From Ptolemy in Tetrabiblos (2nd century CE) discussing the directional associations of countries by sign to William Lilly in Christian astrology ( 17th century) discussing lost objects in horary charts these associations have been used over millenia.

Having said that there is nothing built into the fabric of the universe that says the summer solstice should be north and the winter solstice should be south. We are of course simply discussing symbolism. In ancient Chinese thought going back to the neolithic the ancient sky was divided into four quadrants or super constellations known as the Azure Dragon (Spring-East) , Vermillion Bird (Summer=South), White Tiger (Autumn=West), Black Tortoise (Winter=North).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Symbo ... tellation)

Here is an article discussing a Chinese neolithic grave thought to be of a King from the 6th millenium BCE which is surrounded by representations of the four super-constellations that would later be sub-divided into the 28 lunar mansions.

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/China/astronom ... 9183w.html

The North
North is the opposite of South since South represents Summer, North must represent the Winter, cold and wet, Because of the wet, North is allocated to the Water element; Winter is the season of rains. Because Winter is a dark season, the colour associated with North is black. Where South indicates the harvest and plenty, North symbolizes death. While South represents the benign influence of the emperor, North shows the malign influence of enemies. an excess of north indicates flooding or freezing. The Complete Guide to Chinese Astrology, Derek Walters, p28-29

Using the same natural phenomena the Chinese came to exactly the opposite directional conclusion as the Greeks. Both approaches though were consiitent with the philosophical underpinnings of these different traditions.

Derek Walters also makes the point that in the daytime the Sun in the northern hemisphere is mostly in the southern part of the Sky. Another reason to associate the South with the Sun. In contrast the for the Chinese the North has associations with darkness and death that go back to the Neolithic. The North was the direction for burials and associated with deceased ancestors. These negative associations continue in Feng Shui to this day.

Mark wrote: You are therefore asking an incredible amount of western astrologers to reverse their tradition of identifying Cancer with the North and Capricorn with South. In short you want to reverse an astrological tradition that seems to go back to ancient Mesopotamia.

I am not asking anybody to reverse any tradition.

In fact my system goes with the tradition.
The point is that a movement on the earth map corresponds with a movement in the opposite direction on the sky map (horoscope).
And my astro directions are about movement and directions on the earth map. So to apply in sky map we have to reverse directions.

It is not difficult to see why this has to be so.
Wherever you are, go North.
For example from Texas you move to Toronto.
What happens to the Sun and the planets? From our geocentric perspective they go more to the South as a direct result fo my movement to the North. So, in Toronto the Sun is lower above the horizon.
So this is the key to understand.
Go North in earth map = go South in sky map.
And in the sky map South = 0 Capricorn.
So going North on the earth map = 0 Capricorn.

You mention Chinese astrology and Derek Walters.
Chinese astrology probably borrowed heavily from the Middle East (through the Silk Route). But they understood this point about sky map versus earth map, and how directions are reversed in them.
And they did connect Rat (15 Sag to 15 cap) to North, Rabbit (15 Pis to 15 Ar) to East, Horse (15 Ge to 15 Can) to South, and Rooster (15 Vi to 15 Li) to West.

Hi Danny.
What do you do with charts on the Equator and on the Southern hemisphere? Do you flip over the astro-directions or would you leave it, like allmost every astrologer (classical/modern) dispite the Mesopotamian roots of northern climatological/tropical symbolism?

Hi Danny any chance of any brief usage of your system here? I am having problems reading your page and it might help if you illustrate the idea a little here.

Personally I get where you are coming from, and also see where the confusion is with others. This idea is a westernised version of Nine Constellation or Nine Star as you said at the beginning. Ie symbolic or diagramattic time based Chinese divination of great antiquity. They equated East with Spring on the left of a diagram, and Summer with South and the top of the diagram. So - winter and Capricorn in our usage or the equivalent Chinese boar or pig to the North at the BASE or bottom of the diagram.

regards
mike c

Hello

Speaking for just my own motivation for posting, it wasn't about confusion or misunderstanding, it was the rationales of the assertions that things were errors and the claims about the earth being thought to be flat etc. I wasn't taking issue with alternative systems, whether Chinese, modern, whatever else, etc.

Regards

H.

Fourpillars wrote:The point is that a movement on the earth map corresponds with a movement in the opposite direction on the sky map (horoscope).And my astro directions are about movement and directions on the earth map. So to apply in sky map we have to reverse directions.

That logic is easy to follow, however you haven't reversed east-Aries and west-Libra. As we now know, the sun doesn't rise at sunrise, it's the earth that falls, just as it's not the sun that moves southwards in winter, it's the earth that tilts northwards. Following your logic, a move to the east should surely be reflected by being labelled as west, and vice versa.

A quote from your article.......

We want to map compass directions to zodiac signs.There is a logical way to do it:

0 Degree of Aries = due East direction.
0 Degree of Cancer = South
0 Degree of Libra = due West
0 Degree of Capricorn = North direction.

Basically what we get is a zodiac turned over in clockwise direction, and then we can overlay it directlyon any map that has true North on top.

You're saying it's logical, but not setting out the logic of your mapping system. In your article you make it clear that you know that other mapping systems exist, so by saying your system is logical aren't you implying that the other systems don't work? Or if you think that your system is equal to those, and equally logical, why would we change systems if all the systems work equally well?

As I say, it's not that I disagree with or want to discourage different systems, it's just that to make the effort to explore the workings of a different system, I'd need to feel that the effort was going to be worthwhile, and that the system was underpinned by a logic that fits reality of my earthly experience. I can go along with some of your logic as you've explained it so far, but by just saying....

"We want to map compass directions to zodiac signs.There is a logical way to do it"

....I'm afraid you're telling me that all the other ways are either illogical or at least not as logical, but I haven't found that to be true in practice and in theory. I find the other systems work well and have logical underpinnings.

Regards

H.

Eddy wrote:Hi Danny.
What do you do with charts on the Equator and on the Southern hemisphere? Do you flip over the astro-directions or would you leave it, like allmost every astrologer (classical/modern) dispite the Mesopotamian roots of northern climatological/tropical symbolism?

There is no flip over in the system.
See example one of airplane going from Rio De Janeiro to Paris.
The plane will not change direction because it reaches the equator or crosses it. It goes on flying North to reach Paris. What we use is direction, and that is not affected by change of hemisphere.

MikeCoop wrote:Hi Danny any chance of any brief usage of your system here? I am having problems reading your page and it might help if you illustrate the idea a little here.

What problem do you have in reading or downloading the article?
The article is some 10 pages, I think that's a bit long to reproduce here.

MikeCoop wrote:Personally I get where you are coming from, and also see where the confusion is with others. This idea is a westernised version of Nine Constellation or Nine Star as you said at the beginning.

Yes, as soon as people are willing to step out of their fixed 'traditions' it is very easy to understand.
But as far as I am concerned, people are entitled to their beliefs, and I am not going to convince them otherwise.
At the end of the day, the real question is whether there is some use in this technique or not. And that can only be decided by trying to work with it.
Splitting hairs about whether Capricorn is North or South is not going to solve any real questions.

Hello Danny,

Yes, as soon as people are willing to step out of their fixed 'traditions' it is very easy to understand.

I dont think the issue here is really other people's confusion or obstinance as you seem to be suggesting. You did invite comments on your article at the start of this thread did you not? However, as you haven't got the overwhelmingly positive feedback you seem to have anticipated , you have adopted a rather defensive and at times petulant tone. Rather than write off the criticism of your approach as misinformed it would be more respectful to concede that there are deeper issues at stake here concerning astrological history and philosophy. While your mathematical skills seem first rate you dont seem to have put any time at all into considering how your predecessors in western astrology approached this issue.

Splitting hairs about whether Capricorn is North or South is not going to solve any real questions.

If its splitting hairs why are you unwilling to even consider changing your approach to comply with the western astrological tradition? This response seems have scant regard for the philosophy of directional western astrology which dates back millenia. Of course you are fully entitled to adopt any method you like. However, you would carry a lot more people with you if you worked within the conventions of western astrology. After all you are not doing Nine Star Ki here you are seeking to relate this back to western horoscopy. Moreover, you must surely know that this is not an irrelevent matter. It going to lead to quite different results in real charts.

At the end of the day, the real question is whether there is some use in this technique or not. And that can only be decided by trying to work with it.

Resorting to pragmatism is all very well. However, from my viewpoint at least you have failed to explain a convincing astrological case for changing the approach used by all your predecessors. Perhaps you might consider comparing the traditional approach regarding directions simultaneously to compare it? That would surely be the fairer approach. If you haven't even given it a go how can you be certain your approach is superior?

I would certainly be very interested in software that worked within the traditional outlook of astrological directionology in the west.

Mark

Hi again,
I've thought on this subject more and can only conclude that I can see a real problem with this system.
I've concluded this because the Chinese directionology approach you take is derived from a seasonal/symbolic calendar based system which has no connection to the ecliptic based Western system which you are combining into one diagram.

SO in effect since there are two dscrete subsets of "independantly formatted data" for want of any other way of putting it, then what seems like a meaningful connection ie planetary conjunctions to a Point for instance, actually has no connection at all . I'd guess that if enough charts were produced the apparent validity of connections would dissappear. Hope that makes sense.

kind regards
mike c

Fourpillars wrote:There is no flip over in the system.

Thanks for the reply. I personally would find it more 'natural' according to climate to apply flip over. North being equalized with winter on both the northern and southern hemisphere gives me some trouble, not to speak of what to do in the tropics where there's no winter.

There?s indeed some logic in this proposed order. With the, as above as below and vice versa, association with the day as the small year and the year as the big day, equaling Capricorn, the place where (in northern hemisphere) the Sun is lowest, with the north or midnight is very attractive in a natural sense. Spring-Morning, Summer-Noon, Autumn-Evening, Winter-midnight. So applying East, South, West and North respectively sounds not so bad.

In some sense it has always bothered me that in Tetrabiblos I-10 (Robbins) Ascendant is associated with dryness and Descendant with moist, while in analogy with the seasons it should be mirrored. Ptolemy?s division (rarely used by traditional astrologers) in four quarters of elements in the order of Moist, Heat, Dryness and Cold would feel better when equally applied to the angles/compass- directions.

For this reason I would flip over the system when using it in Australia, Argentina etc, where north is the ?warm? direction and Capricorn the Summer sign. Still leaves us with the question what to do on the Equator.
Another way is to entirely leave the whole concept of applying directions and climate issues to angles and cardines and view the whole of it as mathematical constructs with geometrical meaning. Somewhat ?dry? view perhaps and not really a subject to be discussed here, yet an interesting view to ponder on.