Oh, yes, and I something I forgot to mention; regarding the Asc/national flag connection, I remembered another example of a flag 'ruled by Leo' - Macedonia also has one.
In the ancient times it even had a stylized picture of a leo in both the flag and (as far as I know) the coat of arms.

It gained independence on the 8th September 1991. at 19.00h. This puts the Ascendant of the national chart in Taurus and its ruler, Venus, on IC and in Leo.

I just though you might find this an interesting example!

Cheers again!

Aglaya wrote:

This is such an interesting thread- I've enjoyed reading both your analysis and your thorough introduction into the social life and history of Scotland. I will surely follow this thread in the future.
(Besides, I love your country! )

Well thanks. I thought I was getting a bit carried away. Glad you are enjoying it. So have you been to Scotland?

Aglaya wrote:

I was surprised to see this, i admit! Leo rising is the last thing I expected to see in the chart of a country with app.1100 sunshine hours a year. But, after reading your delineation of the chart, it really does make a lot of sense. What other dates are used by the astrologers in Scotland?

I accept a cold, moist country like Scotland does sound like it should really have a chart more strongly watery in character. The research for this chart was principally carried out by an Edinburgh based astrologer Violet Milne some decades ago. Other Scottish astrologers (Caroline Gerard, Anne Whitaker, Marjorie Orr) who have written on Scotland in mundane affairs have tended to go along with her research.

Being an idiosycratic type I have not accepted this chart unquestioningly. For example, as the Scottish royal line was interrupted during the wars of independence I have considered several charts for the restoration of the Scottish royal line with the the crowning of Robert The Bruce in (1306). Then there is the decisive battle of Bannockburn (1314) which ended English military power in Scotland. Alternatively the Declaration of Arbroath (1320) which asserted Scottish national sovereignity in a declaration addressed to the Pope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath

http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/a ... glish.html

The classic line from the document still sounds topical in our modern world.

It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

Some academics believe this document had an influence on the framers of the American Declaration of Independence.

http://www.scottishinventionamerica.com/work1.htm

Especially Thomas Jefferson who , like many prominent colonial Americans, was educated by a Scottish academic. One fundamental difference in the political theory of Scotland is that unlike Magna Carta in England Scots have always believed sovereignty rests with the people not with the monarch/or Parliament.

Another possibility is a chart for the final peace treaty between Scotland and England when Scotland's status as a fully independent nation was finally given legal recognition in the Treaty of Edinburgh-Northampton (1328).

I am still investigating all these charts and cannot say I have done enough research to reach a definitive conclusion yet. For now I am going along with the 1005 chart as it seems to respond well to significant events in Scottish history. There does seem a connection to Aries around the MC or 10th house whole sign. A Cancer rising chart would fit these.

Aglaya wrote:

And, is the time of birth of your current prime minister known? His chart must be very interesting!

We have a time for all Scottish births as they are all on our birth certificates! I have his data and will be discussing Alex Salmond's chart in some detail later in the thread.

I find it hard to believe I have neglected this thread without an update for so long!

My apologies for that.

I have decided to do two posts to bring the thread up to date. Firstly, this thread will update members on the current political dynamics of this issue. I will also be putting out a separate post soon just exploring the astrology of this issue. This will be one of several posts where I plan to build up to a clear cut prediction of whether I think Scottish independence will take place or not. Those people just interested in the astrology without the background politics can therefore just skip this post.

Recent Poitical Developments

Since the Scottish National Party (SNP) won their landslide victory last May the issue of a Scottish independence has assumed more space in UK domestic discussion. The issue began to really heat up on a UK level in early in 2012 when David Cameron criticised the SNP leader (Alex Salmond) for failing to set a date for the referendum vote.

Salmond eventually responded by stating the referendum would take place in the Autumn of 2014. Since then there has been considerable friction between the SNP led government in Edinburgh and the UK government of David Cameron. This friction has also been mirrored in Scottish domestic politics where the pro-unionists parties ( Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat) have continually clashed with the SNP government over their proposals for an independence referendum.

To summarise the main areas of disagreement have included the following:

Is UK Government Agreement Required?

The SNP led Scottish government has taken the view that it has the right to hold a unilateral advisory referendum on independence without the consent of the UK government. However, this would not be legally binding on the UK government. Thus a pro-independence result from such a ballot would not have recognition in international law.

In January 2012, the UK Government expressed the contrary opinion that the holding of any referendum concerning the constitution would be outside the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Lord Wallace, the Advocate General for Scotland, said that private individuals could successfully challenge a referendum bill passed by the Scottish Parliament. The UK Parliament could temporarily transfer legal authority to the Scottish Parliament to prevent this, but the Scottish Government has objected to the attachment of conditions to any referendum by this process. It therefore appears that for an independence vote to be legally binding it would first require primary legislation passed by the UK government in Westminster.

There are historical precedents for this in the past with UK governments passing legislation for such votes in Ireland in the 1920?s and Northern Ireland in the early 1970?s. In practical terms then to achieve a legally binding referendum result the SNP does require the co-operation of the UK government in agreeing arrangements on issues such as the timing, administration and the wording of the referendum question itself.

Timing of the Referendum?

Alex Salmond?s position is that the referendum will take in Autumn 2014. David Cameron and the Scottish opponents of the SNP maintain this is too long to wait as it is generating economic uncertainty in Scotland. Hence it is suggested key investment decisions by both the UK government and private companies could be delayed until the outcome of the vote.

There have also been allegations that the SNP are delaying the vote in the hope exploiting the 700th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn in 2014. The assumption is that this will see a resurgence of Scottish national pride and identity which will favour the pro-independence vote. David Cameron and the UK government Scottish Secretary Michael Moore have continually questioned why a vote cannot occur in 2013. Ultimately, the SNP position is that since they have an overwhelming majority in the Scottish parliament it is a matter for them and not the business of the UK government to dictate to them.

Wording of the Referendum

The SNP government has proposed its preferred wording for the referendum

??Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country???

This in itself has stirred debate with arguments that the proposed question is biased.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/real ... ndence-snp


One question or two?

Since being elected to power last year Alex Salmond has stated he backs a "yes/no" ballot but is open minded on including a second "devo max" question. His political opponents in Scotland and England have attacked this position and have argued an independence vote needs to be clear and unambiguous. The option of two questions it is argued could create confusion.

It also suggested that the SNP have floated a second question as a safety net in case they lose the independence vote. While all the unionist parties have opposed a second question on further devolution combined with an independence vote there has been increasing discussion by the Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties for what has been variously called Devo Max or Devo Plus.

What is Devo Max / Devo Plus?

?Devo? Max or Plus represents a greater degree of fiscal autonomy for Scotland while still remaining part of the United Kingdom. Under the current system the Scottish parliament already has substantial law making powers.

At present the Scottish government has control of the following functions:

? Agriculture, Forestry, Fisheries and Food
? Culture, Media and Sport
? Economic Development
? Education
? Employment
? Environment
? Health
? Home Affairs
? Legal System
? Local Government and Housing
? Social Services
? Transport


The United Kingdom government largely retains exclusive control of the so called ?reserved powers?:

? Taxation
? Economic Policy
? Welfare Benefits and Pensions
? Currency
? Immigration Law
? Defence
? Foreign Policy
? Human Rights & Employment legislation

The discussion over Devo max or plus largely revolves around assigning greater tax raising and budgetary control to Scotland. At present the Scottish parliament is largely funded like an enormous local authority receiving a block grant from the UK Parliament to cover its annual domestic budget. Devolution of tax raising powers would mean the Scottish parliament could raise a significant portion of its budget autonomously rather than relying on the decisions of the UK government. One model might be Spanish regions such as the Basque terriritory which have had the power to raise and set taxes for decades.


Extending Franchise to 16 & 17 Year olds?
The SNP government have made it clear they wish to extend the franchise to 16 and 17 year olds for the referendum vote. Critics have suggested this is a cynical attempt to increase the pro-independence vote as it is generally accepted that younger voters are more favourable to the idea of independence than older voters.

hi mark,

thanks for sharing. i find it always challenging how astrologers can't operate with full confidence as they don't know if the chart they are working with is the best or most correct one.. you mention this chart for scotland was worked on my someone and is generally accepted by others in scotland, however i pick up a window of doubt in your comments as well.. have you considered how you might be able to predict the idea of scottish independence using another chart such as one from britain which this idea of seperation would have much bearing on? i am sure you have, but i thought i would toss it out to you..

the idea of engaging younger voters by lowering the voting age to 16-17 might seem self serving, but how does this differ from so much of the way laws are designed at present? if someone can drive a car when they are 16, why can't they vote too? one is considered an adult by 12 when they want to go see a movie in a theatre which many might say is just a money grab, but this is actually the state of the world today.. these attempts to define what is an adult and what is not seem so self serving to me on many levels..

James_M wrote:

thanks for sharing. i find it always challenging how astrologers can't operate with full confidence as they don't know if the chart they are working with is the best or most correct one.. you mention this chart for scotland was worked on my someone and is generally accepted by others in scotland, however i pick up a window of doubt in your comments as well..

Your right. Although in part my reservations with that chart are ones I have with the notion of all national charts. Lets not forget in historical terms the national chart is a very modern development in mundane astrology. Probably the first popular advocacy of national charts came with the publication of Charles Carter?s Introduction to Political Astrology in 1951.

Traditionally the main tool of mundane astrologers for centuries had been ingress charts along with other timed charts for eclipses, lunations etc. However, Charles Carter had, along with his British contemporaries, completely failed to predict the outbreak of WWII. Carter concluded that the traditional ingress chart was therefore inadequate and proposed national charts as a new way forward. However, as someone who has studied the pre-war ingress charts I have to say the fault lay not in these charts but in Carter?s delineation of these charts. Carter was in many ways an excellent astrologer but I think his failure to predict WWII was a reflection of the decline in traditional understanding of ingresses. In any case national charts caught on like wild fire and quickly established themselves as the dominant type of mundane chart in modern astrology. The rest as they say is history.

Nevertheless, the national chart throws up a number of difficult issues. Not least of these is can a nation really have a single birth moment like a person? In older countries this can be problematic when there may be many formative moments. Even a comparatively modern nation like the USA throws up intense debate. Should we use a chart for the 4th of July 1776? If so what rising sign? Sagittarius, Gemini, Scorpio, Virgo or Libra? All have had their astrological advocates. Moreover, there are numerous other key dates in terms of the formation of American statehood such as the signing and coming into effect of the Articles of Confederation or the Federal government. Which is the one true national chart? I engaged in a mega thread on this topic here on Skyscript some years ago regarding the chart for the USA. It taught me that this kind of thinking is futile. Part of the problem is that people seek different things in a national chart. Some seek a chart that gets to the heart of supposed national character while others are content with a chart that responds well to historical events. Ingress charts never create this kind of dilemma.

I am not saying national charts are of no value. However, I think we need to accept that a country may have numerous key moments. Generally I prefer constitutional charts as the most reliable kind of chart. Hence I tend to favour the US Constitution chart for 1789. At least we avoid interminable debates over timing and the latest innovation in rectification of ?the true chart?. Clearly, the 4th of July chart says something very significant in regards the American spirit. I do look at the Sibly chart in that respect.

Getting back to the 1005 chart it is a chart for the coronation of King Malcolm II. The Scottish astrologer who first proposed this chart (Violet Milne) is one of my predecessors as Chair of the Scottish Astrological Association. Violet was clearly following the same kind of logic as that behind using the 1066 chart for England which marked the Coronation of William I (The Conqueror). It should be said we don?t have accurate times for either chart. In both instances a noon time is used as the assumed traditional time for coronations. However, these events happened in an era before mechanical clocks. I personally therefore tend to use the Solar Noon so that the MC is exactly on the Sun. I do have a reservation about the timing of the 1005 chart. Still, I have put numerous other historical dates through the grinder and the 1005 seems as good as anything else.

Of course as I stated earlier no medieval astrologer would have considered using such a single coronation chart as a representative chart for the nation forever. All it would symbolise would be the reign of Malcolm II. I think it could be argued the coronation of King William marked a pivotal date in English history. The Norman conquest instituted a fundamental social change. I have found the 1066 chart quite good at reflecting events in England even today.

I am not so convinced 1005 marked the same kind of historical rubicon for Scotland. I think the main argument that might be made for the reign of Malcolm II is that his Kingdom possibly represented the first Scottish Kingdom to link the Gaelic & Pictish North (Alba) and the south-east and west of the Kingdom (Anglo-Saxon Bernicia and ?British? Strathclyde). Although I have read historical research that disputes whether Strathclyde really joined a united Scottish Kingdom at this point or significantly later.

Enough musing. Time for some charts for people to get their teeth into!

Mark

The Scottish First Minister, Alex Salmond has signalled the start of a two-year campaign to persuade the Scottish electorate to embrace independence, after agreeing a referendum deal with British Prime Minister David Cameron today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-19942638

After more than eight months of intense negotiations, the Scottish first minister and the UK prime minister signed a detailed 30-clause agreement in Edinburgh to stage a referendum before the end of 2014 asking a simple yes or no question on whether Scotland should become independent.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/About/Govern ... dependence

The "Edinburgh Agreement" means that the Scottish Government can now propose legislation on the precise wording of the question, the exact date, extending the vote to 16 year olds, finance rules and conduct.

The Scottish National party leader said the deal, agreed less than 18 months after he won a landslide victory to take control of the Scottish parliament, "paves the way for the most important decision that our country, Scotland, has made in several hundred years. It is in that sense an historic day for Scotland, a major step forward in Scotland's home rule journey".

Salmond said he believed "heart and soul" he could win the referendum but, in a rare admission about the scale of the task facing his government and the Yes Scotland campaign, he acknowledged he still needed to persuade a majority of the country's 4 million voters to back independence.

The agreement paves the way for the most important vote in Scotland for 300 years when the Acts of Union bound England and Scotland together.

Main Provisions:

-UK Government gives Scottish Government power to determine date of election. A retreat from its previous position this should happen in 2013.

-UK Government drops opposition to 16 and 17-year-olds voting

-The Scottish Government drops the idea of a second question on 'devo-max' to secure vote in autumn 2014

The date of the actual referendum favoured by Alex Salmond is believed to be October 14th 2014. This is a Saturday and would be controversial UK elections historically occur on Thursdays. Salmond is keeping the precise date a secret for now as he is believed to be holding announcement until the Scottish National Party Conference this Saturday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_P ... tion,_2011

I wasn't around to check media reports when this agreement was signed earlier today. However, I have seen this photo with Cameron and Salmond shaking hands just after signing the agreement. Its looks like 1.15pm to me but I will be checking with some other Scottish astrologers on this. I will be using that time provisionally

Data: 1.15pm on October 15th , Edinburgh, Scotland
Very interesting that the chart features a new Moon right on the MC. Modern astrology suggests New Moons are good for new beginnings but traditional astrology takes a quite different view and sees such times best for secret actions or magic.

However, if the time for this chart is correct the Moon is actually cazimi here. Cazimi means literally in the heart of the Sun. Such a planet avoids all the negativity of combustion and according to William Lilly makes the it 'wondorous strong'. While the cazimi planet is meant to partake in the power of the Sun here the Sun itself is somewhat weakened by being in its astrological sign of fall (Libra). Moreover, the dispositor of the Sun/Moon is Venus which itself is in its sign of fall (Virgo).

In terms of aspects it is applying across the sign boundary to a conjunction of Saturn. Alternatively, if you only count aspects that perfect before leaving sign it is void of course. Moreover, the moon is totally, out of sect here in a day chart, above the horizon in a masculine sign. The Moon rules the 8th house , traditionally 'the idle place' which reinforces associations of fear, anxiety and distress.

Still this chart looks like it could have been astrologically elected by a modern astrologer.

The question is who is really the winner or loser here astrologically? The SNP, Scotland or the United Kingdom? Its true the independence and pro-union campaigns are already underway. Still, Salmond has yet to set his preferred date for the referendum. We will return to that later.

Here is the chart:
I have put the chart in a couple of Bi-wheels with Charts used for Scotland. Firstly, the popular 1005 chart I have discussed in this thread earlier. Secondly, the Edinburgh Agreement time in comparison with the chart for the creation of the Scottish Parliament in 1999.
We see both the MC, Moon and Sun in this chart opposing the MC ruler (Mars) in the 1005 chart. Whatever the merits of the 1005 chart this degree (25-26 cardinal) seems significant in Scottish history. Tr Uranus on the radix Venus which is located in the legal 9th house and is Lord 11 by quadrant or 10 by Whole sign. Tr Mars trine the radix Venus and Sun. Tr Mercury on radix Pluto. Tr Pluto on radix Neptune.
Looking at the Edinburgh Agreement in comparison to the Scottish Parliament Chart we again see the radix Mars activated but this time by conjunction to Tr Moon/ Sun, and especially chart MC in Libra. Tr Mars sextiles the Moon. Mercury MC ruler opposes Saturn. The new Moon-Sun Conjunction sextile the radix Venus. We can see Saturn has entered Scorpio and will be opposing its radix position during 2014.

Mark

Thankyou Mark, for the amount of work you have done to give us such a detailed and excellent report on this matter of great importance to all Scots!

It would seem to me that the outcome of the referendum should be obtainable from the event chart which you gave us for the signing of the Edinburgh Agreement at Holyrood. It could be regarded as a contest chart, the contest being started at the moment when the two contestants agreed on the rules of combat. Would you agree?

Best wishes,

Geoffrey

Mark wrote:I wasn't around to check media reports when this agreement was signed earlier today. However, I have seen this photo with Cameron and Salmond shaking hands just after signing the agreement. Its looks like 1.15pm to me but I will be checking with some other Scottish astrologers on this. I will be using that time provisionally

Data: 1.15pm on October 15th , Edinburgh, Scotland

Mark

Only a very short note as to the time: Obviously you take the golden hand of the clock as the minute hand. But it is very unusual that the minute hand is of another colour than the hour hand. It looks as if the black or dark minute hand obscures the hour hand (of the same colour as the minute hand, as usual with clocks) at just five minutes after one o'clock, and the golden seconds hand is at 17 seconds aftter this time about. Thus:

1.05.17 pm.

. . . if this clock displays the right time at all!

Johannes

I agree.
If the clock time is correct, it appears 1.07 PM and about 20secs to me.
The MC is conjunct Spica and the new moon is very close to it.
It could have been a closeted Cyril Fagan scottish siderealist who chose this chart.

Trop[ically,
1st lord(England) in detriment- going to the opponent(Scotland-Edinburgh) and being recalcitrant(retrograde).
7th sign is the sign associated with US Independence(Gemini).

Sidereally,
Mars - 1st lord is in own sign, typically, the scots have kept the Fortuna dispositor powerful.Saturn is exalted, Venus is not in fall and the 2nd lord Juiter is in the 7th but not in fall and trines MC.

The astrologer was paid by the head of Barclay's.
There is a US-Scottish stellar conspiracy going on here
(I heard it on BskyB Republic of Scotland)

pankajdubey wrote: Trop[ically,
1st lord(England) in detriment- going to the opponent(Scotland-Edinburgh) and being recalcitrant(retrograde).

Interesting that. In event charts, the ascendant is for the person or group initiating the event. One would have naively thought that would be Alex Salmond and his party. But with a "recalcitrant" Jupiter smack on the descendant, that has to be Cameron who went to Holyrood to sign the agreement. Since the agreement would have been drafted in Whitehall by the UK Government, is it then Cameron who is seen as the initiator of this event? That would fit.

The agreement itself is surely for the 9th house of legal matters. Mercury rules the 9th and so is confusing as Mercury also rules the 7th and will be for Alex Salmond. But Venus, on the cusp of the 9th, is given by modern authors as natural ruler of international legal treaties, so that will do very nicely as the agreement here. Mercury is sextile to Venus, so is quite happy with it. Jupiter's square to Venus leaves us in no doubt about Cameron's thoughts on the matter!

As for who will win the referendum, it is interesting that the Part of Fortune is bang on the Ascendant....

The astrologer was paid by the head of Barclay's.

An English bank.... It would not surprise me if that was perfectly true.

There is a US-Scottish stellar conspiracy going on here

If Scotland does gain independence, it will need all the friends it can get!

(I heard it on BskyB Republic of Scotland)

The satellite is parked in the wrong orbit then

Geoffrey

Good morning,

Thanks to our Moderator for an excellent overview of Scottish history and related astrology. It seems to me that it would be worthwhile in reference to the 9th house to mention that Scotland is considered the country of origin of Freemasonry as we know it today. Scotland is reputed to have by far the highest percentage of Freemasons of its population amongst all the world's nations.

Is someone already preparing ingress and / or eclipse charts for the discussed events? If not, i might calculate and post some. To my feeble knowledge it is certainly correct that 'national charts', like 'world months' based on the cycle of precession (procession viewed geocentrically), are developments of modern astrology, for the better or the worse.

Best regards,

lihin

johannes susato wrote:

Only a very short note as to the time: Obviously you take the golden hand of the clock as the minute hand. But it is very unusual that the minute hand is of another colour than the hour hand. It looks as if the black or dark minute hand obscures the hour hand (of the same colour as the minute hand, as usual with clocks) at just five minutes after one o'clock, and the golden seconds hand is at 17 seconds aftter this time about. Thus:

1.05.17 pm.

. . . if this clock displays the right time at all!

A few people have said the same to me so I will go with the majority on this. 1.05pm it is!

I assume they signed just a few moments before this photo was taken. They were sitting down and there were two other signatories-Michael Moore (Scottish Secretary), Nicola Sturgeon (Deputy First Minister).

So where do we go from here?

Salmond is likely to announce his preferred date for the election (probably Sat Oct 14th) this weekend. After that we have a wide range of techniques at our disposal.

1 Nativities of the key players: Salmond, Cameron, Sturgeon, and Michael Moore utilising transits, progressions, directions, profections, returns etc

2 Using the Aries and Libra Ingress charts preceding the election

3 Looking at the preceding Eclipse and Lunation chart.

4 Examination of various Scottish charts ie 1005, 1328, 1603, 1707, 1999. Plus charts for the UK-esp 1801 and 1927

5 Opening and Closing of Poll charts

6 Charts for the SNP and other UK parties

7 Charts for the launch of the separatist 'Yes' campaign and pro-union 'No' campaigns.

We do have 2 years so I think we have time for all of these here!

I see Geoffrey's suggestion about using the Edinburgh Agreement as a contest chart. I am not so sure though. This is an agreement on how the referendum process will be conducted legally between the two governments. So even if it sets out 'rules of combat' I feel we still await the actual contest in Autumn 2014. So in my view its not a contest chart in itself.

Still, its an interesting discussion point. What do others think?

I would rather use an opening of polls chart in 2014 for that. Incidentally, most of the negotiation was ironed out in Edinburgh not Whitehall. Michael Moore and Nicola Sturgeon basically negotiated the final terms of the agreement.

I think its well overdue to discuss Alex Salmond's natal chart. I will post that up for discussion next.

Mark