Well, Saturn is already seeing the Ascendant, since he is in the 7th, at approximatelly 15? of Taurus, and Mars does not aspec Saturn in this sign, so I did not get your point here.

I was just making a general statement about Saturn and Jupiter as the two superiors which are slower than Mars and hence to whom Mars normally can only apply when in "need" i.e. when they can help him see his own domicile by reflecting his light toward it.

BTW - no need for blushing emoticons, Clelia we all make mistakes now and then.

Greetings,
Goran

Hello!

I decided to write because I came to know personally the native which chart I was studying: the one with the Sun in the 4th house in Aquarius. And he had eyes with large iris as has been described in people whose Venus aspects closely the ASC.

He had a 2nd house full: Mars at zero degrees of Sagittarius, Jupiter at 1 degree, Moon at 11? and Venus at 15?. The Sun is at 2? of Aquarius in the 4th house. The ASC is Scorpio, 4?27'.
The LOT was at 25? of Sagittarius and the planet near by degreee was Venus.

Well, what is bugging me is that the Sun would not be able to translate the light departing from Mars, Jupiter to Moon/Venus to the ASC, because the Moon is faster than the Sun. Kind of confusing, hu? I?ll try again: we imagined that the Sun translated the light from Mars, ruler of the ASC to the ASC. But how to translate the light of the Moon, being the Moon faster than the Sun and much more closer to Venus than the Sun, to the same ASC in order to justify the native?s eyes?

The Moon aspects Venus but does not aspect the ASC and the ASC is responsible for physiognomy.

My only shot is that the Hellenistics, like Valens, were right standing for a chart departing from the Moon or from the Lot as complementary to the one constructed according to the minute and second of birth.

I imagine that if we are not able to see the Primary Motivation through the horoskopus and his rulers, we have to construct a chart departing from the position of the Moon and the LOT. Perhaps the scenary will change a lot.

any thoughts?

Cl?lia

I thought it might be useful to display a real chart which illustrates the issue of aversion. In particular, one where the domicile and exaltation Lord is in aversion to a whole sign house it rules.

I have looked at several charts of Scottish millionaires (birth times all AA as verified by birth certificate).

Below is the chart of the Scottish millionaire Duncan Bannatyne which has some interesting features. Bannatyne is a well known face on British Television as one of the panel of millionaires in the long running BBC TV show ?The Dragon?s Den?. The Dragons in this instance are a panel of millionaires/entrepreneurs who assess a series of inventions and creative business ideas. There are some similarities to the US TV show ?American Inventor?, However, the UK show also expects participants to prepare detailed business plans and projected profits etc. Bannatyne is known for his tough, no nonsense personna on the show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Bannatyne
Bannatynes chart seemed interesting as his second house ruler(Mercury) is in aversion to its house (Virgo) by whole sign in the 7th house. As Mercury is also the exaltation ruler of Virgo there is no way for it to help out directly. Bannatynes poverty and financial insecurity in his early life is well reflected by an out of sect, Rx, peregrine Saturn in the 2nd. However, around the age of 29-30 ( coinciding with his Saturn return) Bannatyne seems to have found his true vocation as a businessman /entrepreneur. Starting out with an ice cream van he went on to purchase a Nursing home and after selling this purchased a string of successful health clubs across Scotland. His business portfolio now includes hotels, health clubs, spas, media, TV, stage schools, property and transport. His wealth as of 2011 was estimated at ?430 million by the Sunday Times Rich List.

Bannatyne was honoured with the Order of the British Empire (OBE) for his contribution to charity and supports many good causes, especially for children. He is heavily involved with Comic Relief and UNICEF, and is a passionate anti-smoking campaigner.

There are some interesting mitigations that might help explain the remarkable reversal of fortune that permitted Bannatyne to become so wealthy. Mercury (Lord 2) conjoins the Sun ( Lord 1). In fact Mercury is exactly cazimi of the Sun! Both planets are in an angular house that can see the MC and 10th. There is also a generosity between Mercury and Saturn with Mercury in the domicile of Saturn and Saturn in the domicile, bound and face of Mercury. Jupiter the natural significator of wealth and Lord 8 is not well placed. Its in the cadent 6th house. Jupiter is also in its fall and out of sect. However, it can see the 2nd and 10th house. Venus Lord 10/MC ruler is also in the 6th house. It is in sect but peregrine. Its perhaps significant that both benefics are trining the MC.

The lot of Fortune is in the 12th. Both the lot and its dispositor are cadent. This reflects the humble origins Bannatyne came from. In his teens Banatyne served in the Royal Navy and spent 18 months in military Prison after attempting to throw an officer off a boat landing jetty in Scotland. He left the service with a dishonourable discharge. The dispositor of the Lot of Fortune is a peregrine Moon in Aries the 9th house. Bannatyne left his home in Scotland at 15 and never returned to live there again. Bannatyne made all his wealth outside Scotland. He has tenaciously remained in the same location where he married and founded his first business (Stockton-On-Tees in North-East England) and still commutes down to London several times a week. Indicated by both the fixed sign on his 4th house cusp (Scorpio) and its ruler Mars in the 7th in the fixed sign of Aquarius.

The lot of Spirit is at 15 Libra in the 3rd house. Its dispositor is Venus in Capricorn located in the 6th gives some interesting pointers to how Bannatyne has made in his money in businesses focused on pleasure (Ice Cream), care for the elderly and and in a series of health clubs, spas etc. Bannatyne has written 4 books; Anyone Can Do It sold more than 200,000 copies; Wake Up and Change Your Life quickly entered the Sunday Telegraph top selling books list, as did How To Be Smart With Money closely followed by How To Be Smart With Your Time.

I tend to think Saturn (plus the cazimi Mercury) is key here. It is trining his MC/10th house quite closely. In his early life Bannatyne seems to have clashed repeatedly with authority figures. As Lord 7 it seems that once Bannatyne found the stability of his marriage and the need to provide for a family he released those tough self disciplined Saturnian qualities in himself symbolized in his angular Sun, Mercury and Mars and was able to focus these abilities through their dispositor in the 2nd house.

There are some interesting mitigations that might help explain the remarkable reversal of fortune that permitted Bannatyne to become so wealthy.

Also, being a night-chart, the triplicity rulers of his sect-light are in order: Jupiter, Sun, Saturn (Moon in Aries).
Jupiter, governing the 1st part of life is miserably placed in his fall and (most important) cadent. Indeed, not a good period.
2nd part of life comes under the responsibility of the Sun. He is badly placed essentially, but mighty in the pivot of the 7th (and as you noted, the King has raised and taken Mercury ruler of the 2nd sign, to sit on his Lap on the Throne!).
3d part of life is (will be) taken care of by Saturn. Saturn is peregrine yet still has some power by placement in succedent house. One might fear though that some of this man's richness will dissappear, or be taken away... (Saturn retro).

But/and Jupiter together with Venus being in Fortuna's 7th house, with Fortuna's dispositor itself (the Moon, the Light of the Time) in the 10th house of Fortuna, certainly will have helped (and keep on helping)!

Herman

Hello!

Herman, it is not a night chart: the Sun is above the horizon;-)

But I agree with you that the Fortune has a long story to tell us.

In this chart we have some remarkable features: there is a Doriphory (or spear bearer) helping the Sun: Jupiter and Saturn are oriental to the Sun and rise before him. it?s not a first hand doriphory because the essential dignity os the planets is poor and they are in feminine signs, out of sect: but it is a doryphory, anyway.

In second place the ruler of the 2nd, Mercury, in the 7th, is cazimi, and looking to the ASC, so the ASC is able to take notice of the " movable possession?s problem". I would consider that even in the second sign Saturn is configured to the ASC, as well as to the 2nd ( he is by dinamical houses near the cusp of the ASC), so the generosity, as pointed out by Mark, works between planets configured by both the 2nd and the first house.

The 3rd and more important fact is given by the Fortune. The Moon is in the 10th of the Fortune, and this says about his work with the public and women. Venus and Jupiter are diametrical to the Fortune. They are not in a real good shape but they are benefics and are angular to the Fortune, showing that the native was able to earn money from women again and from activities pro health in general (remembering that in the radical chart these planets are in the 6th). In the radical chart Venus rules the MC and the Moon is the MC ruler by exaltation.

In my opinion the most important factor justifying wealth in this chart is the Part of Fortune.

It is interesting to note that, being a day chart, the triplicity rulers of the Sun give the 3 parts of the native?s life: the first part is ruled by Saturn, and it was tough, the native was poor, and this shows that Saturn is not able to do much by itself even with Mercury generosity and help.

The 2nd part of life is ruled by Mercury, cazimi, and thank you Mark for bringing the example, because it is a proof of the cazimi?s power, since by this time he made his fortune!

The 3rd part of life, where he is in, is ruled by Jupiter, a benefic cadent but angular to the Fortune, so everything says he will continue to enjoy a wealthy life.

Clelia

Nice this man's earning's history can be made to fit a day-birth, but I think you were misled by the whole-sign house chart, Clelia.
With the descendant at 24 Aquarius, and the Sun at 13 Aquarius, I'd say we might be beyond dusk allready!

Hi Herman:

I?m at the gym and here we have a computer to use, do you believe in the middle of an exercise I realized that the division by whole signs messed up my mind! The ASC was at 23 Leo so the DSC was in the same opposite degree and...it is a nocturnal chart as you said, so we have to deal with the Moon, to give testimony of the 3 periods of life

I will write more later: back to the exercices!

regards

Clelia

Hello Mark, Clelia, Herman and all

Mark wrote: Venus in Capricorn located in the 6th gives some interesting pointers to how Bannatyne has made in his money in businesses focused on pleasure (Ice Cream), care for the elderly and and in a series of health clubs, spas etc.

I never heard before about Bannatyne, still the chart is interesting (I will use Placidus houses in my reading)

I mostly agree with Mark that Venus is very important.

First for profession. Venus is the ruler of MC, and this is not enough, but it is on sixth house cusp (which is one of the houses mentioned in Paulus Alexandrinus chapter about activities and trades), in sect and in its heliacal phase. In fact it will be in heliacal setting on 4th February ( inside the 7 days interval mentioned by the same astrologer).

So no doubt it is the ruler of activities. It is with Jupiter, the natural significator of riches. Ptolemy says that this means support from women (I don't know if this is the case).

Venus is the ruler of the Ptolemaic Part of Fortune which falls in Libra, so that's a good sign.

There is no aspect between the PoF and its ruler, and this is not good, still both they are ruled by Saturn, which so put them together in some way.

This is not nice too in my opinion because Saturn is peregrine, retrograde, and out of sect in an angle, so I wonder if these riches will last.

margherita

I would like to fix some statements I did, missing the fact that it was a nocturnal chart and this changes things quite a bit.

In this chart we have some remarkable features: there is a Doriphory (or spear bearer) helping the Sun: Jupiter and Saturn are oriental to the Sun and rise before him. it?s not a firsthand doriphory because the essential dignity os the planets is poor and they are in feminine signs, out of sect: but it is a doryphory, anyway.[/

The doryphory gains importance since the planets, Jupiter and Saturn are in sect. The Moon, above the earth in very important in a nocturnal chart and being in sect and and in haym , in antiscia with Venus, ruler of the Fortune is an important help to the nativity. She also has a doryphory, Venus, which is in a feminine sign, so Venus is a real help for the Moon.

In second place the ruler of the 2nd, Mercury, in the 7th, is cazimi, and looking to the ASC, so the ASC is able to take notice of the " movable possession?s problem". I would consider that even in the second sign Saturn is configured to the ASC, as well as to the 2nd ( he is by dinamical houses near the cusp of the ASC), so the generosity, as pointed out by Mark, works between planets configured by both the 2nd and the first house.

The 3rd and more important fact is given by the Fortune. The Moon is in the 10th of the Fortune, and this says about his work with the public and women. Venus and Jupiter are diametrical to the Fortune. They are not in a real good shape but they are benefics and are angular to the Fortune, showing that the native was able to earn money from women again and from activities pro health in general (remembering that in the radical chart these planets are in the 6th). In the radical chart Venus rules the MC and the Moon is the MC ruler by exaltation.

In my opinion the most important factor justifying wealth in this chart is the Part of Fortune.

I maintain this point.

It is interesting to note that, being a day chart, the triplicity rulers of the Sun give the 3 parts of the native?s life: the first part is ruled by Saturn, and it was tough, the native was poor, and this shows that Saturn is not able to do much by itself even with Mercury generosity and help.

The 2nd part of life is ruled by Mercury, cazimi, and thanks you Mark for bringing the example, because it is a proof of the cazimi?s power, since by this time he made his fortune!

The 3rd part of life, where he is in, is ruled by Jupiter, a benefic cadent but angular to the Fortune, so everything says he will continue to enjoy a wealthy life.

Please do not consider the last paragraph, since it is a night chart.
The Moon is in a fire sign and the triplicity by night is Jupiter (first part of life), Sun, second part of life, and Saturn, last part of life.

Probably Jupiter cadency and bad celestial state is able to justify the difficult first part of life.
The Sun, being angular by whole signs, ruler of the ASC and having Mercury ( ruler of the 2nd) in his heart, was able to do more.
Saturn, the last part of life is, being disposed by Mercury, can justify his writings and his success writing about finances, a matter of the 2nd.


Cl?lia

Olivia wrote:

The Moon, above the earth in very important in a nocturnal chart and being in sect and and in haym , in antiscia with Venus, ruler of the Fortune is an important help to the nativity.

I don't think the Moon in Aries can be in antiscia relationship with Venus in Capricorn - its antiscia degree falls in the 26th degree of Virgo!
Capricorn is in anticia relationship with Sagittarius.

She also has a doryphory, Venus, which is in a feminine sign, so Venus is a real help for the Moon.

Ben Dykes:
The consensus seems to be that a planet is in doryphory if it either rises before the Sun(albeit not combust or under the beams) or sets after the Moon. But it is unclear whether a) it must be in the same sign as the luminary and if so, b) before or after it.
http://www.astroclassic.org/text-trad/U ... yPartI.pdf
I wonder what kind of doryphory definition you had in mind, because Venus isn't in the same sign as the Moon and doesn't set after it(as the majority of the authors seem to suggest should be the case with the doryphory of the Moon?)

Regards,
Goran

Sorry for that typo - I meant Clelia

Regards,
Goran