"Local time"

1
HI,
I mentioned this in the "Gay-thread" - Mark suggested a thread of its own on this:
("average") local mean time vs true local time

Suprisingly not many people seem to have cared about this.
But the difference between true and local time may amount to around 14 minutes. So this may turn out be quite significant from time to time.
Of course, the difference may be as small as just one or two minutes - or not even existent.

E.g. GB, Jan 1st, 1801:
local mean time (LMT): IC 9:20' CAP, Sun at 10:11 CAP
true local time (TLT) means that IC and sun are exactly conjunct. This means a difference of four minutes - TLT is four minutes later. LMT: AC 7 degrees LIB / TLT: AC 8 degrees.

One minute might be ignored, one may think. But when it comes to, say, 10 minutes the difference may indeed be highly significant - there might even be a different AC or MC.
Mark has repeatedly pointed out the importance of the Constitutional chart of the USA (and given lots of impressive evidence):

4th March, 1789, N.Y., "at midnight".

LMT AC 26:56 degrees SCOR, IC 10:53 PIS

TLT - about 11 minutes later: Sun conj IC at 14:07, AC 29 degrees.

Now, the question is: what sort of time was in use in past centuries? Obviously LMT was officially established not until the second half of the 19th century, e.g. in Germany in 1893. There were practical reasons: timetables for trains etc. Shortly after that the problem simply vanished - as the worldwide time zones were definitely introduced. ( Today only physcists and astronomers seem to be fully aware of that difference.)
So it seems that TLT was in use before that.
However, for practical reasons, big mechanical clocks, such as church clocks, usually gave LMT.

Anyway - being astrologers we would agree that "midnight" means IC conj Sun, wouldn't we?

LL
Non coerceri maximo, contineri minimo divinum est.

2
Thanks Lunlumo,

A very interesting point. I confess my total ignorance on this issue beforehand so I am grateful to you for raising this. I have found some useful links that explain the difference between Local Mean Time (or Mean Solar Time) and True Solar Time ( aka Apparent Solar Time). The principle of calculating the difference between the two solar measurements is given in another link 'Equation of Time'

http://www.tpub.com/content/administrat ... 20_149.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_mean_time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

This subject has been discussed before on Skyscript but more in regards their use in an emphemeris for modern charts. The issue seems much more important for historical charts as Lunlumo has suggested.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewt ... 6ea3494e38

The whole subject of the history of time recording is very interesting. The adoption of a standardized time seems to have occured earlier in the 19th century in Great Britain due to the requirements of train timetables. Railway timetables required a standardized time rather than the variety of local times. A standardized railway time was therefore adopted across Great Britain in the early 1840's. Other countries soon followed suit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_time

Greenwich Mean Time was not adopted officially by the UK Parliament until 2 August 1880. Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) was adopted by the United States (USA) at noon on 18 November 1883 when the telegraph lines transmitted time signals to all major cities. Prior to that there were over 300 local times in the USA.

Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) was adopted universally on the 1 November 1884 when the International Meridian Conference in Washington, DC, USA met. From then the International Date Line was drawn up and 24 time zones created.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... Conference

As far as I can see Germany did officially adopt GMT at this point but I assume it took a lot longer to practically implement as Lunlumo suggests. France was the major dissenting country and did not adopt GMT until 1911.

The question still remains were local mechanical clocks working on LMT or LAT in the late 18th century in America?

This from wikipedia:
Until the invention of the pendulum and the development of reliable clocks during the 17th century, the equation of time as defined by Ptolemy remained a curiosity, of importance only to astronomers. However, when mechanical clocks started to take over timekeeping from sundials, which had served humanity for centuries, the difference between clock time and solar time became an issue for everyday life. Apparent solar time (or true or real solar time) is the time indicated by the Sun on a sundial (or measured by its transit over the local meridian), while mean solar time is the average as indicated by well-regulated clocks. The first tables for the equation of time which accounted for its annual variations in an essentially correct way were published in 1665 by Christiaan Huygens. Huygens set his values for the equation of time so as to make all values positive throughout the year. This meant that a clock set by Huygens' tables would be consistently about 15 minutes slow on mean time.

Another set of tables was published in 1672/73 by John Flamsteed, who later became the first royal astronomer of the new Greenwich Observatory. These appear to have been the first essentially correct tables which also led to mean time without an offset. Flamsteed adopted the convention of tabulating and naming the correction in the sense that it was to be applied to the apparent time to give mean time.

The equation of time, correctly based on the two major components of the Sun's irregularity of apparent motion, i.e. the effect of the obliquity of the ecliptic and the effect of the Earth's orbital eccentricity, was not generally adopted until after Flamsteed's tables of 1672/3, published with the posthumous edition of the works of Jeremiah Horrocks.

Eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries

The corrections in Flamsteed's tables of 1672/3 and 1680 led to mean time computed essentially correctly and without an offset, i.e. in principle as we now know it. But the numerical values in tables of the equation of time have somewhat changed since then, owing to three kinds of factors:

General improvements in accuracy that came from refinements in astronomical measurement techniques, slow intrinsic changes in the equation of time, occurring as a result of very slow long-term changes in the Earth's obliquity and eccentricity and the position of its perihelion (or, equivalently, of the Sun's perigee), and the inclusion of small sources of additional variation in the apparent motion of the Sun, unknown in the 17th century, but discovered from the eighteenth century onwards, including the effects of the Moon, Venus and Jupiter.

Until 1833, the equation of time was tabulated in the sense 'mean minus apparent solar time' in the British Nautical Almanac and Astronomical Ephemeris published for the years 1767 onwards. Before the issue for 1834, all times in the almanac were in apparent solar time, because time aboard ship was most often determined by observing the Sun. In the unusual case that the mean solar time of an observation was needed, the extra step of adding the equation of time to apparent solar time was needed. In the Nautical Almanac issues for 1834 onwards, all times have been in mean solar time, because by then the time aboard ship was increasingly often determined by marine chronometers. In the unusual case that the apparent solar time of an observation was needed, the extra step of applying the equation of time to mean solar time was needed, requiring all differences in the equation of time to have the opposite sign than before.

As the apparent daily movement of the Sun is one revolution per day, that is 360? every 24 hours, and the Sun itself appears as a disc of about 0.5? in the sky, simple sundials can be read to a maximum accuracy of about one minute. Since the equation of time has a range of about 30 minutes, the difference between sundial time and clock time cannot be ignored. In addition to the equation of time, one also has to apply corrections due to one's distance from the local time zone meridian and summer time, if any.

The tiny increase of the mean solar day itself due to the slowing down of the Earth's rotation, by about 2 ms per day per century, which currently accumulates up to about 1 second every year, is not taken into account in traditional definitions of the equation of time, as it is imperceptible at the accuracy level of sundials.
I may be wrong but I take it from this that mechanical clocks in this period were operating on LMT not LAT. When an event is recorded as happening at a specific time eg midnight on March 4th 1789 I therefore think we can infer it would have been timed from LMT not LAT. I have noted that all the charts proposed for this period in the USA on Astrodatabank and Nicholas Campion's Book of World Horoscopes use LMT accordingly.

More generally, though it does seem more logical to adopt LAT rather than LMT for events recorded before mechanical clocks attained a degree of accuracy. Not least because the main method of time keeping before mechanical clocks were sundials and these inevitably worked on the basis of Local Apparent Time (LAT). While other methods were used for timing at night such as water clocks or candle clocks I assume these all referred back to a LAT reference point.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

3
Thanks a lot, Mark.
This is really a lot of information.
I'm not sure that one can get to a satisfying solution by just looking at some transits.
With respect to the Constitutional chart: E.g. when Kennedy was killed Pluto was at 14/04 VIR i.e. conj. MC when referring to TLT (MC/Sun 14:07, Pluto 14:04). But the Solar based on LMT for that year yields Pluto conj AC (exact).

When looking e.g. at Sept. 11 / 2001 the evidence ( fortunately? unfortunately?) seems to support both TLT and LMT - depending on what method is used (transits, Solars, Tertiary progressions, Secondary progressions,Septars...)
Maybe, one just has to be pragmatic: Obviously the time people were aware of in (e.g.) 1789 was indicated by the church clocks and the chiming of the bells. And that was LMT. I do not know if the bells were heard in New York at midnight, March 4th, 1789. But in a way LMT seems to have been a more or less "official time" then - thus comparable to today's conventions.

LL
Non coerceri maximo, contineri minimo divinum est.

4
I do not know if the bells were heard in New York at midnight, March 4th, 1789.
I dont think the fair residents of New York would have been too happy with that. :lol:

I do need to do justice to the Federal constitution chart in a full thread soon. However in brief I need to clarify why I have proposed a chart for 4th March 1789. Its more common to see the chart for the signing of the constitution. However, it wasn't ratified at this point and therefore legally operative. The other serious option is a chart for the ratification of the constitution by the the necessary two thirds of the states. The chart for the ratification of New Hampshire was when the constitution legally came into effect. Although there is no time for this event it would be an interesting chart with the Sun in Cancer and Moon in Aquarius just as on 4th July 1776. However, the Confederal Congress took a while to recognise this and set a later date for the practical dissolution of the Confederal Congress and the birth of the new goverment. Hence March 4th was selected as the date for the changeover following the congressional elections.

Although the Federal Congress met for the first time on March 4th 1789 it was not quorate until over a month later. So why lump for 4th of March? Officially just after 00:00 hours on March 4th 1789 represented the beginning of the term of office of both houses of Congress and the President. Hence although George Washington was inaugurated on April 30th 1789 his first term of office was until midnight on January 3rd 1792.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pr ... ted_States

Equally, all subsequent Presidential and Congressional terms always ended at midnight on March 4th. This tradition continued until 1933 when the 20th amendment to the US constitution changed the inauguration date to noon on January 20th and Congressional terms were altered to end on January 3rd. This was to reduce the time between the November elections and the new President/Congress taking up office.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_ ... nstitution

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly