Fellow Forum members, recently a fellow layman who believes strongly in the powers of astrology asked:

"will F____ J_____ repay me in person the money he said he would return?"

2:50pm Reno, Nevada, USA 6/15/2011

I have found if you calculate the horoscope in Regio and copy the web adress before you click on nthe chart with your mouse to enlarge it it stays on this Forum, yet Not my emails.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?lang ... r=1&nho2=1

The Querant had asked the horary the prior day and I made them aware as this was thier first horary that I need at least 48 to 72 hours prior as we know horary is a difficult avenue of astrology and takes a lot of concentration and work. Of course a week prior to the event would be more convenient.

As the querant's lord, Venus is in the 8th and the borrower as Lilly points out is the 7th is also in the 8th I imediately saw the horary as very radical and describing the situation.

The Moon 25sag19 oppositioning Mercury(lord of the 9th) shows the astrologer's problem with too short of a time frame of getting the horay results for the querant.

The Combust Mercurcy, lord of the 9th, and the astrologer and borrower's 3rd shows the overdone or over baked communication between of the borrower and also the astrologer.

Since Mars is the lord of astrologer, the borrower according to Lilly, and the querant's money, I originally interpreted that the borrower may not meet with the querant as Mars has no ptolemaic aspects. Also I've lately been thinking that with the unaspected Mars the astrologer would be ineffective oin this horary. But the main point I saw was with the unaspected Mars, lord of the querant's 2nd, that the money would not be returned.

But in studying Lilly last night I'm thinking the benefic, Venus in the 8th trining Saturn could say otherwise.

Would appreacite all insights from those who understand the quagmire of this type of horary and how Lilly would have judged it.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Clinton,

The Lender is ruled by Venus and the Borrower is ruled by Mars. Mars is posited in the 8th - his money house together with Venus, ruler of the Lender.
The Moon is fast and in via the combusta zone - she is 5.50 degrees from moving into Capricorn. Saturn, The Moon's ruler is in the 12th House, and he is in his joy placed here.

Mars is conj. the Fixed Star Algol @ 26 Taurus - and Venus is 7 degrees Gemini. I feel the Lender has been 'duped'/talked out of her money here and it is unlikely the money will be returned.

Julie K

The Moon is about to be eclipsed...a very grave affliction of the most important planet in horary. Along with Venus/Mars in aversion to each other and Venus's application to Saturn cadent in the 12th I think there's ample testimony for a rather negative outcome.

Mars on Algol - the greater part of the querent's money is simply lost for good in the pocket of the borrower.
What might signify a little hope is Venus, lady of the borrower's second, applying by trine to Saturn in the 12th(almuten of the ascendant degree), signifying at least a minor part of the sum being returned in three months.

Since Venus is peregrine, out of sect, above the horizon in a day chart and in a masculine sign she is ex conditione and cannot provide much.

Regards,
Goran

I agree with the previous post. The Moon in a horary represents action, the flow of events. If the flow of events is eclipsed, then it seems to me that nothing can manifest in relation to the matter about which the querent asked. The eclipse occurs across the 3rd-9th axis, representing communications and also trips. I take that to mean the quesited won't bother communicating or coming in person to the querent--he won't make the trip.

LP

Thaks Forum.

In CA II, page 173(my copy) under:

"If the Querent shall obtaine the Substance which he demands,
or hath lent, or the Goods he hath pawned."

4th section Lilly says:

"See if the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon be joyned to the Lord of the 8th, who is Lord of the Substance of the party quesited after, or see if either of them joyned, or in aspect to a Planet posited in the 8th; if the Planet in the 8th be a fortunate, or the aspect itself fortunate, he shall obtaine the money desired; or if he would borrow the money required will be lent him: if he have deposited any Pledge, it will be restored, whether the fortunate Planet in the 8th be received or not; yea, if an infortunate Planet in the 8th, or Lord of the 8th, and receive either the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon, the Querent shall obtaine his desire; but if no reception be, he will hardly or ever procure his demands, and if ever, with so much difficulty and labour, as he would rather wish the thing had been undone.."

Well we know Venus both the querant's lord and the lord of the borrower's money is a benefic(note:the emphasized in black from Lill's document) while Mars in the 8th is the querant's money and the borrower's lord(7th), an unfortunate planet in the 8th.

As stated Mercury is combust, both the borrower and astrologer's 3rd, and I'm having trouble communicating with querant as they are in long distance travel presently; I don't know the outcome as thier response is vague. I've got hints that maybe some of the money is being repaid or soon will be.

My hypothesis is Venus as a benefic even though unaspected according to Lilly if I understand him correctly promises paying back the debt. Yet there is Mars, an unfortunate planet foiling the promise of Venus.

Clinton Garrett Soule

My hypothesis is Venus as a benefic even though unaspected according to Lilly if I understand him correctly promises paying back the debt.

Greetings Clinton:

I must respectfully disagree with what you say here. I do think an aspect would be required to show perfection of the matter.

I read over the whole section in CA (173-74), ?If the Querent shall obtain the Substance which he demands, or has lent, or the Goods he has pawned.? I think Lilly makes it pretty clear that he does require an aspect between L1 (or L2 or Moon) and L8 or Fortunes that tenant the eighth house. He refers repeatedly in this section to the necessity of the significators being ?joined? in some fashion.

Also, the way the querent worded the question seems, to me, to demand an aspect. The querent asks if the individual who borrowed the money will come in person to repay the debt. That?s very specific phrasing?the querent really wants to make a connection with the borrower and the money.

There are questions which do not necessarily require an aspect to yield a positive answer. For instance, if a querent needs for some reason to ask ?Will I keep my money?? then an aspect may not be necessary. The money is already with the querent, and the astrologer would need to look for signs that the money stays where it is, such as angles or significators in fixed signs.

In this case, the querent has been separated from his money. An aspect is necessary to show that it comes back to him, IMHO.

LP

I can't see anything positive in this either. Mars in quesited's turned 2nd might show the quesited is very bad with his finances, particularly since this is a day chart and Mars is out of sect and therefore more fiery and wasteful. Mars as his ruler is in detriment in the house asked about - a planet in detriment (with minor face - barely able to pay the rent?) might describe someone without any money to give to the querent. Jupiter in Taurus falls in his 1st but is peregrine, so perhaps he is fond of spending money on pleasurable things vs. paying his bills.

Not only that but it's showing the querent's 2nd house ruler and I don't see how a 2nd ruler VOC, conjunct Algol, in detriment, out of sect in the 8th would show any sort of advantage to that house, or, in other words, a gain.

The PoF falls in the quesited's house in an unfavorable sign as well, showing loss to the querent.

Someone asked me if they could plan a wedding with Venus as ASC ruler applying to Saturn in the 12th like that (I think it was a night chart and Saturn is more prone towards adding to such a difficult connection there, causing loss, pain, sacrifice) and I was very adamant that was a bad idea... I would think Saturn is very forceful upon Venus in a sinister aspect like that and sinister aspects are associated with "enemies and weakness", according to the skyscript glossary here (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dexter.html), even when not taking into account the 12th house and Saturn.

Leo-Poet said:

I must respectfully disagree with what you say here. I do think an aspect would be required to show perfection of the matter.

That is the way I originally saw it, and think that what you are saying is entirely true with 95% confidence in your assessment and my original hypothesis.

We all know in horary study how many read and diligently studied Lilly and Ancients before him yet missed some things.

As stated as the 9th is my third and the borrowers and the lord, Mercury is combust and opp by Luna communication with the querant is off at present so I have little feedback on this question as of yet.

But I still look at Lilly and the Benific's influence it the 8th, do I misunderstand Lilly on the outcome as many Modern's and serious Traditionalist of horary academia have done for centurys?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Hi Clinton,

We don't want to forget all other aphorisms that Lilly has said when we take note of that one. What does he and others say about the abilities of benefics to bring good? Do they always work well or do we take into account other contributing factors, such as Venus peregrine, in a barren sign, oriental, out of sect, applying to a malefic influence?

I wish to thank very humbly Julie K, cor scorpii, Leo-Poet, and Tanit for thier contributions on this horary.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?lang ... r=1&nho2=1

Here are the results:

1)As stated both the borrower and the astrologer were having difficulty in communication on this one with the lord of the 9th, Mercury, combust to the Sun; the 9th being the third for both astrologer and borrower. The querant having returned from thier trip has shared with me yesterday that the borrower and querant had a difficult time in communication as have I in not hearing from the querant til very recently.

2) Those of you previously mentioned noted my hypothesis that Lilly may have been saying since Venus is a benefic and was in the 8th it was possible that the money could be paid back. I had my doubts since Mars, both the lord of the querant's money and lord of the borrower was not involved in any ptolemaic aspects and also in the horary's 8th.

Yet Venus the querant's lord, and lord of the borrower's money was trining Saturn; which I disregarded as Saturn had little to do with the money in the horoscope in my oppinion other than the end of the matter for the horary.

The querant told me the borrower returned most of the money but as stated communication was overcooked, burnt between them, very bad as the combust Mercury testified of.

3) As I had explained to the querant, most horary's need more time to study as I didn't even have 24 hours notice of when the querant and borrower were to meet. And Mars was unaspected, ruling the astrologer so I was ineffective on this particular horary.

Anyone with Loan horary experience, your comments are welcome. But I think I and others overlooked the possible Venus trine Saturn as insignificant in this horary.

Clinton Garrett Soule

What is the connection between the Querent and the borrower? Are they friends, colleagues, relatives, neighbors?

Clinton,

I had a horary involving money which was resolved positively in which Saturn received Venus' trine:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6229

I don't think house almutens are given enough of a weight in some horary judgements.