Tom wrote:Supposedly in this chart Mars is peregrine, but that rests on two assumptions 1) that we are not using Lilly's system, and 2) that planets in detriment can be peregrine, and this is the origination of the topic. However even if we accept this, I'm not clear on what it has to do with Mark Federer's successes or failures (damn few) for that matter on the tennis court or in life. As Mark points out Mars rules 3 & 8. He is the exaltation ruler of 5 (sport) but does not rule the ASC, the MC or disposits the ruler of same. Mars therefore has to do with 11th house issues and by extension 3rd and 8th house issues none of which have much to do with success in the chosen field.

His success in sports can be attributed to Lord 5 being in exaltation and conjunct Jupiter in 2 (making money from 5th house activities and making money is how tennis players are judged - ATP ranking system notwithstanding). His ASC ruler, if we ignore combustion as Morin tells us to do and I am increasingly willing to do, Mercury the ruler of the 10th house of honors and Lord ASC is conjunct the Sun the planet with the most connection to honors and we can see his success. Mars neither helps nor hinders those efforts from what I can tell. Mars does sextile the ASC, but that tells us he has Mars types interests not whether he will be any good at them. In fact having a malefic in debility in aspect to the ASC might do more harm than good. the sextile may mitigate this. Maybe tennis is the only sport he can play well (I seriously doubt that).

And he is running Mercury Firdar from 1999-2012. This firdar is already coming to an end and we see that his challengers are increasing as well.
In vedic astrology it is said that you need appropriate planetary periods for promised things to fructify and Federer luckily got his better Firdar periods early on.He won his first Masters title in 2002 in Mercury- Moon Firdar with Moon being 11th lord and in exchange of signs with 3rd lord Mars (in fall- which is odd).His career subsequently took off.

PD

margherita wrote:In Italy for example doctors are obliged to have a clock in the delivery room, because the birth time has effects on the patrimonial rights of the new born.

I don't understand this, from a juristical point of view. I think the only thing that could raise problems is the question whether the person was born on the one or the other day when birth occurred around midnight.

Although my question has nothing to do with the astrological discussion here and is a bit off topic, but as someone who studies law I'm very curious what patrimonal rights are meant in Italy? Is it about inheritence matters?

Tom
Thanks for having explained my words. For me it's not easy to write in another language.

[b]Eddy[/b] wrote: but as someone who studies law I'm very curious what patrimonal rights are meant in Italy? Is it about inheritence matters?

Exactly so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasciturus ... us_agiturr

[b]Mark[/b] wrote: Incidentally, not everyone is into fixed stars/paranatellonta. I think you should explain why Lepus culminating is significant here.....

I find that the hellenistic method of choosing between the swift planets in one of the indicated active positions, it's quite difficult, because many times there is no planet in heliacal rising, no planet at MC, or they are at the wrong side of the Sun....

On the contrary in Manilius/Firmicus activities indicated by fixed stars are much easier to follow.

About Lepus, and Gemini I copied in my post the whole comment by Feraboli. Gemini paranatellonta and athletes are so associated that in a Renaissance fresco depicting the paranatellonta for the 12 signs, Gemini is associated with athletes.

The image is showed in my blog post already linked in this thread.

It is true that Feraboli talks about stars RISING, but she wrote elsewhere quoting from Boll's Sphaera, that for ancients which angle the star was is quite indifferent.

In fact many pictures taken from Astrolabium Planum show the star which is setting or culminating, rather than rising.

margherita

Thanks Margherita for the clarification. Inheritance law is not a field I know a lot about but in the Netherlands there are also some lawtexts about the foetus in relation to inheritance matters.

Mark wrote:I think its useful to bring such theoretical discussions back to real charts. It was natal not horary astrology that Konrad was asking about at the start of this thread so I prefer to stick with that. I know its controversial but I have real doubts that the use of dignities in horary/electional translates that smoothly to natal charts. Human beings are an evolving process not a single event/question. I think dignities need a more subtle and flexible understanding in natal astrology.

Exhibit A. Tennis Champion Roger Federer. Federer has Mars in Cancer which is in fall, and out of sect and ruling his 3rd/8th house, and located in the 11th. His Moon is out of sect and in fall in Scorpio and Venus (in the 1st) is out of sect in its fall in Virgo. Mercury (ruler of the ASC +MC) is combust the Sun, peregrine and in the 12th house. Yet he certainly seems to be someone who has achieved just about everthing he has set out to achieve professionally in the international spotlight.

Mark

Some quick comments on Federer's chart.

Is Mars (Significator of sportspeople) being in fall not mitigated by mutual reception with the Moon? 11th is a house of success, 3rd is the house of icons (Traditional name "Goddess") and Moon joys here - Federer is a sporting icon.

Stellarium wrote:

Mark wrote:I think its useful to bring such theoretical discussions back to real charts. It was natal not horary astrology that Konrad was asking about at the start of this thread so I prefer to stick with that. I know its controversial but I have real doubts that the use of dignities in horary/electional translates that smoothly to natal charts. Human beings are an evolving process not a single event/question. I think dignities need a more subtle and flexible understanding in natal astrology.

Exhibit A. Tennis Champion Roger Federer. Federer has Mars in Cancer which is in fall, and out of sect and ruling his 3rd/8th house, and located in the 11th. His Moon is out of sect and in fall in Scorpio and Venus (in the 1st) is out of sect in its fall in Virgo. Mercury (ruler of the ASC +MC) is combust the Sun, peregrine and in the 12th house. Yet he certainly seems to be someone who has achieved just about everthing he has set out to achieve professionally in the international spotlight.

Mark

Some quick comments on Federer's chart.

Is Mars (Significator of sportspeople) being in fall not mitigated by mutual reception with the Moon? 11th is a house of success, 3rd is the house of icons (Traditional name "Goddess") and Moon joys here - Federer is a sporting icon.

I was under the impression that planets in fall/detriment could not receive another. I can't remember where I read it though.

Konrad wrote:I was under the impression that planets in fall/detriment could not receive another. I can't remember where I read it though.

from a Rob Hand lecture: "Reception between planets in major debility [detriment and fall] = mutual deception".

IMO it's a reception of little use, worthless and of little help.


james

Ciao Margherita.

Mi dispiace ho dimenticato inglese ? seconda lingua!

Margherita wrote:

About Lepus, and Gemini I copied in my post the whole comment by Feraboli. Gemini paranatellonta and athletes are so associated that in a Renaissance fresco depicting the paranatellonta for the 12 signs, Gemini is associated with athletes. The image is showed in my blog post already linked in this thread.

Scuse.

Mark

Mark wrote:Ciao Margherita.

Mi dispiace Ho dimenticato inglese ? seconda lingua!

Mark

It's very difficult to write in a language when you never talked it and should explain articulate concepts (at least I hope so), because you should translate whatever you think in simpler words you can put together, without any nuance or going deeper into the matter.


In every case I believe my point is clear enough.

Moreover, going back to astrology, traditional astrology - at least the method I use - is not like modern astrology. I cannot pick whatever in the chart and use in order to support a reading, because every field has its specific significator ( Ptolemy/Renaissance method).

If I'm considering work and career, I don't take Moon or Mercury or Sun, I'm obliged to choose between the listed significators, and in the same way whatever field of life I'm considering.

This is difference between modern and traditional reading, and this is the reason why I say that many times the significators I should consider don't work. Simply because I cannot pick whatever.

If I have a soldier with Venus as MC ruler and in heliacal rising, I cannot take Mars in Aries (I'm inventing here) in order to support my reading if Mars is opposite the Sun if I want to stay traditional...

And believe me, this happens very often when you are in search of examples.

My idea is that Federer chart fits quite well with the native, and moreover Mars is not in any angle, which would be worse.

And still if it would be at the angle, the native could have success, but he should be very attentive with the "wrong" planet at the angle, because the planet does (because at the angle) but its way

margherita

On the continued subject of charts with planets in fall or detriment here is chart that illustrates this issue well with no less than 4 planets in detriment or fall. I have presented the chart in three house systems: Placidus, Alcabitius and Whole sign.
What kind of occupation might this man incline to using traditional rules?

If you know the chart please dont give this one away. Ignore the Rodden data rating of B that is a mistake. I believe it is A or AA. I think this one is fairly straightforward but I have the possible advantage of knowing who the chart belongs to.

Mark

Hi Mark,

My comments on Mr. X

Some points about the chart (using whole sign houses):
1. Most elevated planet is Jupiter near MC. Jupiter in Gemini in its detriment. Jupiter rules 4th and 7th - two angular houses. Jupiter is disposed by Mercury
2. Mercury in Scorpio is the ruler of 1st and 10th. It is peregrine and in the 3rd house.
3. The Moon is in its fall and its next aspect is with peregrine Saturn in Scorpio. The Moon is in the house of its joy.
4. The part of fortune is in Scorpio. The planets in Scorpio are the Moon, Saturn, Mercury & Venus. These planets link the other houses (9th, 11th; 5th, 6th; 1st, 10th; 2nd) with the 3rd house through rulership.
5. The planets in 3rd house in Scorpio are disposed by Mars in its detriment in the 2nd house. Mars trines Jupiter. Mars and Venus are in generosity relation with both being in detriment. Mars also rules 8th. The ruler of 8th in 2nd has an indication of getting money from others.

Having noted the above points I don't know what to do with them still learning the basics..

My understanding is that the career will have signatures of the 3rd house/Gemini and Scorpio. Maybe he is a writer/journalist/publisher who writes/publishes about the darker shades of life, maybe about illness, medicine, etc; or he is a salesman who is successful in selling things that are not usually considered important or of much value.

Vasanth

Mark wrote:On the continued subject of charts with planets in fall or detriment here is chart that illustrates this issue well with no less than 4 planets in detriment or fall.

The problem are not the planets in detriment or fall. Moreover at least Moon, and Venus are not in the angle.

In every case the world is full of natives which had success with detrimental planets at the angle.

This is Pietro Taricone , (04 Feb 1975 h.22 Frosinone)
Being famous to be one of the contestants of the first edition of the Italian Big Brother in 2000, he became a famous actor. His nickname was Warrior.

He died in 2010 ( aged 35) after a jump with parachute.


So what I'm trying to say that detrimental (and peregrine planets) don't deny success, but cause problems and sudden falls (even literally) according the nature of the planets. Obviously it is better a detrimental planet in a cadent or succedent house than in an angle.


p.s. Is your Mr. X a writer or some mercurial activity? I hate the chapter about activities...

margherita