Seiko wrote:

Konrad wrote:

Seiko wrote:How about the fact that Venus rules both H1 and H8 so we can take Mercury as the significator of the money? Moon applies to opposition with Mercury which describes the fact that the Querent had to harass the borrower to collect the money -- and Mercury is combust (though it is not so much of an affliction in its own sign) so not all of the money were recovered.

May I ask why you use Mercury to reprsent the money?

Yes, you may. L1 and L8 = Venus but Venus cannot make an aspect to herself, can she? You need a planet to connect Venus to. In these cases the usual method is to take the Lord of the next sign -- Mercury.

Do you have a source for that? I think I remember reading something similar in one of John Frawley's books but I never found it to be effective and it doesn't really make much sense to me.

I think it's Lilly who says that if the querent and quesited are in signs ruled by the same planet, it shows an affinity between the person and their desire. I'm not near my books at the moment, so can't dig out the exact page.

It's Frawley. I don't think connecting L1 to Saturn in the 12th makes a lot more sense -- or any sense at all, except the fact that Saturn rules H4, i.e., the end of the matter.

Venus cannot be both L1 and the Lord of the Quesited. Frawley's method makes a lot more sense here -- Mercury is the money, the opposition tells the story.

Seiko wrote:It's Frawley. I don't think connecting L1 to Saturn in the 12th makes a lot more sense -- or any sense at all, except the fact that Saturn rules H4, i.e., the end of the matter.

Venus cannot be both L1 and the Lord of the Quesited. Frawley's method makes a lot more sense here -- Mercury is the money, the opposition tells the story.

I disagree. A combust significator being opposed from its detriment doesn't tell the story. Saturn is almuten of the 1st house in mutual reception by trine with the quesited/querent and also, as Clinton has pointed out, Lilly states that an aspect from the querent to a dignified malefic which has dignity in the ASC can perfect the matter. This is much more solid and logical than just changing the significators because the chart doesn't work out using Frawley's methodology.

If I wanted to, I could connect any planet to anything - the almuten of the First House, the almuten of the Quesited, the dispositor of L1, the dispositor of the Quesited, Almuten Figuris, the Ruler of the Hour, the dispositor of L7 (the other person), the dispositor of the Part of Fortune (if the money is involved), the Lords of the Angles, and, of course, natural significators of money -- Jupiter and Venus.

Then, we must not forget that there can be a translation and collection of light between any of those planets.

Well, good luck with that. I'm sticking with the basic stuff -- as if it is not complicated enough.

Besides, where's the harrasment and 'overcooked' communication - Venus in Saturn's Triplicity, Saturn (besides being in its own Exaltation, Triplicity and face) in Venus' sign and term -- strong mutual reception and they apply to a harmonic trine aspect.

It should have been a piece of cake.

Seiko wrote:If I wanted to, I could connect any planet to anything - the almuten of the First House, the almuten of the Quesited, the dispositor of L1, the dispositor of the Quesited, Almuten Figuris, the Ruler of the Hour, the dispositor of L7 (the other person), the dispositor of the Part of Fortune (if the money is involved), the Lords of the Angles, and, of course, natural significators of money -- Jupiter and Venus.

Then, we must not forget that there can be a translation and collection of light between any of those planets.

Well, good luck with that. I'm sticking with the basic stuff -- as if it is not complicated enough.

Actually only Jupiter naturally rules wealth but I would restrict that, and most of what you have listed, to nativities (although I don't see what much of that list applies to wealth, yours or otherwise, even in nativities).

Horary is simple and it is made even more simple when everyone has access to such a comprehensive book as Christian Astrology is. I find you won't be too far off if you take into account Lilly's counsel before making judgements but if you ignore it, then things won't be so good as evidenced in this situation.

Seiko wrote:Besides, where's the harrasment and 'overcooked' communication - Venus in Saturn's Triplicity, Saturn (besides being in its own Exaltation, Triplicity and face) in Venus' sign and term -- strong mutual reception and they apply to a harmonic trine aspect.

It should have been a piece of cake.

Seriously?

Mercury, ruler of the turned 3rd is combust and being opposed by the Moon and when is anything involving Saturn in his joy going to be a "piece of cake"?

Look, I'm not against Lilly, never said that. He was a genius. Well, unfortunately, we're not. It's easy to take one chart and say hey, this works. When almuten will not help, well, then there's another natural significator. Well, or there's that planet in the Angle. Remember aphorism #73? Yes, it's totally that.

All I know is this -- if I stick to the basic stuff I get results, if I'm trying to outsmart myself then I suck.

Look at the "CHAP. XXI. To know whether a thing demanded will be brought to perfection yea or nay." from CA part I and tell me how many almutens are mentioned there. Or how many almutens Lilly uses in his actual charts.

Lilly could READ the chart, he did not follow some strict rules. I don't think there are a lot of people today that can jump right into the chart just like that. This is preschool -- he was a professor.

The farther you wander off from the basics into the Big Boys territory, the more mistakes you will make. Even if one understands the basic theory of relativity, it does not mean one can work with a professor and solve equations.

Blessed Forum members who are so diligent in trying our best to practice horary with the conviction of our learned mentor William F. Lilly I must thank you all.

As all of you see the lord of the astrologer is cjt. the fixed star Caput argol, that 'off with the head' symbology, from various writtings. And this particular astrologer has been hacking at his own head of why this was such a hard horary to answer.

Well in studying CAI today I found under 'CONSIDERATIONS before Judgment.' at top of page #123, above Chapter XX the following quote of Lilly's Considerations something that should resonate in all of us when we view a horary in that:

"The Lord of the 7th unfortunate, or in his fall, or Terms of the Infortunes, the Artist shall scarce give a solid judgment."

Now most adept Forum members, Mars is very unfortunate in not only is it unaspected it's in essential detriment in Taurus, which represents myself the astrologer; Lilly's warning shouts that I should have avoided this one.

And, if I understand horary correctly my consultants via this Forum are represented by the Asc. of this horary(derived 7th) and Venus in the horary's 8th is in it's accidental fall which I believe says that my consultantcy were also unfortunate regarding this particular question.

Like many here have stated we can't answer every horary successfully and our great mentor, Lilly has warned us and we need to take this consideration to heart.

It's like how many of different religious faiths fail to adequately understand thier respective texts and we see various divisions in those groups. Lilly has stated what should be done on this horary very plainly.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Could someone with perhaps a little more knowledge and experience tell me if the following would be a logical and legitimate way of reading this 'collecting debt' horary chart if one didn't already know the result, or if it's more a case of 20/20 hindsight. Please point out any errors, missteps, or definitely broken rules.

1. At the outset we see that the querent and the quesited (the money lent) have the same significator, Venus, according to house rulerships of 1st and 8th houses.

2. Since these main significators need to be different for possible joining/aspecting purposes, we look to see which of these houses should be assigned Venus, i.e., which is best described by it, and see that it fits the 8th best, since Venus is in the 8th, and the borrower does indeed have possession of his own money as well as Mars/2nd/querent's money, which is in danger of being lost or not paid back (Mars in detriment and conjunct Algol). And besides all this, Venus is a generic significator of money.

3. And since Venus is taken as the significator of the 8th house, it makes sense to assign the almuten of the 1st house/Saturn to be its significator, which also seems to describe the querent well, i.e., in a state of worry, seriousness, and obstacles in trying to get his money back. It's also in the 12th house, which describes the inevitable helplessness and vulnerability that he or any lender feels when they realize they may not be able to get their loaned money back.

4. Since Mars has previously been taken as the clear significator of the 2nd house/querent's money, we also need a different significator for the borrower himself/7th, so again we use the almuten of the 7th, i.e., the Sun, which also describes his more powerful position at this point as possessor of the loaned money.

5. So with the key players all assigned, we look for a connection between the querent/1st/Saturn and borrower's money/8th/Venus and see that there is a trine, so yes, there's a good chance he may get his money back, but since Saturn is in the 12th, he may not get the full amount or none at all.

5. In addition, the Sun/borrower is placed in his 3rd house of communication, where he is combusting Mercury/his 3rd house ruler, so this along with the conjunction to the South Node suggests there may be a problem with communication on the part of the borrower.

6. Also, Moon/querent is in his 3rd house of communication and has just passed the opposition with Sun/borrower and is now applying to an opposition with Mercury, which doesn't receive Moon (being in Mercury's detriment), so again there may be difficulties in communication between the borrower/Sun and lender/Moon.

(And this next part is definitely "post-results" and outer planet observations and analysis...)

7. However, Jupiter/querent's 3rd ruler/communication is in the 7th or borrower's 1st, in an upcoming trine with Moon, suggesting the querent/Moon does manage to get his message through to the borrower, "in his face" if you will, via the "large man with the video camera", shown by Moon's intimidating power conjunction with Pluto in his 3rd, as well as Jupiter's trine with Pluto.

So aside from the very last part, #7, do those steps in the analysis seem to be a valid way of getting to the end result? Thanks!

BTW Clinton, thanks for this very interesting, thought-provoking horary that seems to be providing an excellent learning experience for us all!

Look, it's complicated because it's simple.

If the question is 'general' as I call them (Should I move to this new location? What is school going to be like? etc ) then it is a perfect time and place to flex your astrological muscles. You look at the significators -- 'well, your school is going to suck' or something like that.

Even "Where is my dog/keys/whatever" is a general question because you can describe the location, direction, distance etc using traditional methods.

The problems start when the question is very specific. Like, "Will my team win tonight?". You look at the chart -- 'the opponent's significator is combust, your team will surely win'. But when the querent's team loses with like 0-6, you think it's impossible not with such a debility like that.

Well, the debility is there. Maybe the other team is very weak at the moment or in a slump but it does not mean the will lose this one specific game tonight. You need hard clear-cut evidence. You need a connection between the principal significators -- and there are more ways than one. Always pay close attention to translation of light. Translation of light is at least in the Top 3 on the list of reasons why Moon is the most important planet in horary.

Of course, there are exceptions when you can 'use' some other testimony in the chart but then it has to be very very convincing. Like, if the money is involved or something like that, and the Querent's significator is in its own sign conjunct essentially strong Jupiter, you just can't ignore that.
But as a rule, the more specific the question is, the more specific testimony there has to be.

This is one of the reasons guys and girls in the Sports/Gambling Section have difficulties finding consistent testimonies in the event charts for football. The winning/losing thing is very specific which does not bode well with a general chart -- and, besides, an event chart is just the same as an election chart, without the birth chart of the person (or team in this case) it is pretty useless. You can get some general description of the situation (good/bad/whatever) but it is very difficult to hit the nail right on the head.

Well, at least that's how I see it.

If a guy is walking thru a minefield, his situation can be described as 'very bad/extremely dangerous' but you must be very careful if you want to predict whether he will actually step on a mine and blow up.