13
Hi PFN
In order to a transit trigger an event, it would have to be able to see the ruler of said event and the rising sign (the rising sign is likely the Hyleg in my chart).
Sounds like a good example of testimony and planets testifying, as defined by Robert Schmidt in his Definitions and Foundations and exemplified through numerous workshops and intensives.
Although your findings of them as pertaining to transits are very interesting.
Something to look into, thanks!

Yeah aversions are really great, that is ... for astrologers to get a grasp of, not necessarily for natives to have.
Hermes

15
I am not a native speaker,
I'm sure every language has nuances like this. Not to mention that it is one of the problems confronting a translator if two meanings are possible using the same word.

16
Hi All,

Hermes wrote:
It's location in the 8th says that it has the power to be more active for 9th house issues, as opposed to it being in the 9th itself, which is declining. It has however less power compared to a planet that would be in a dynamical angle.
This interpretation combining whole sign houses for signification and quadrant house for strength looks perfect.

However, What about the signification using quadrant house? Does the planet have any role in the 8th house affairs? Of course it can do so by different means, by aspecting the 8th house ruler for example. What I am not sure is whether it will have affect on 8th house affairs just by placement?

Tom said:
As for me, every time I decided to use whole signs, something happened in a chart that, I thought anyway, could not be explained using whole signs, so I stuck with quadrant. Then something would happen where whole signs looked good so ..... and on and on.
The above comment makes me feel that there is no straight forward rule to using quadrant or whole sign houses for signification. Maybe we should be flexible for both.

However:
But using aversion and whole signs there are things in my chart that are clear that are not so clear using Placidus, Regio, or Alcabitius.
This encourages using whole sign houses along with aversion.

Paulo & Mithra also recommend whole sign houses for signification.

Rule for me (as of now), especially for natal:
Go with whole sign houses for signification, while keeping an eye on the quadrant house placement of the planet as well.

Vasanth
Last edited by Vasanth on Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Hi Tom,

Is it possible for you to share your observations on using aversion along with whole sign houses?

I have read about aversion and it's mitigation, but never managed to apply it.

Thanks,
Vasanth

18
This interpretation combining whole sign houses for signification and quadrant house for strength looks perfect.
It might be of additional value but there's also the risk of adding too much information and therefore the chance to find always something one wants.

I think the underlying issue is that of the use of different reference frames: the ecliptic for whole sign systems and the quadrant system for in mundo aspects. Technically I think that when you use the ecliptic, only the Equal Ascendant, and Equal MC, systems and their Whole sign derivatives can be used because then reference frames aren't mixed.

19
Is it possible for you to share your observations on using aversion along with whole sign houses?
I'll try to answer the question, but there are others on this forum that are more familiar with the concept than I am. I'm a rookie with it. Here goes:

I'm going to limit this to one kind of aversion: when a planet is in aversion to the house that it rules. Planets can also be in aversion to each other and to other houses, but I think this is the big one and the easiest to understand. Furthermore it is easier to understand using whole sign houses. I'm sure the concept can be understood and used with quadrant house systems, but it is easier to explain and learn with whole signs, so we'll use a whole sign example.

First a planet is in aversion to another planet or house when it cannot make a classical aspect to that planet or house and its opposites. So the 1st is in aversion to the 12th and 2nd therefore any planets in the 1st and 12th or 1st and 2nd are in aversion to each other and cannot work together. Planets can be in aversion to houses that they rule and this in itself can be a problem.


Image


Since finance is the main topic of the news these days we will look to the 2nd house of wealth of the nation, in this case the USA, as the chart is cast for Washington DC. Mars is the ruler of 2 and he is in Gemini in 9 in aversion to the 2nd house. Dykes quotes Sahl to the effect that a planet's relationship to the house it rules is one of protection and provision and it is a two way street. The ruler provides for the house and the house provides for the ruler. But if a planet is in aversion to the house it rules, this cannot happen. Each is in its own. The house, which is what we are looking at, is in need, danger of mischief. He also notes there will be breaks or differences between the lord and its house.

At this simple level we can see that the wealth of the nation, for this quarter at least, is in trouble. It has no connection to its ruler so its ruler cannot provide for it and since the ruler is in the 9th there will be no help from foreign countries (and vice versa) as Mars is peregrine meaning he is wandering about with little or no strength. This is a pretty good description of the American economy at the moment.

Next look at the 10th house, and the Sun. The Sun is always important in an ingress chart. Here it is in the 10th indicating the leader. It is in aversion to the 11th, the Congress. The Sun in Cancer will always be in aversion to Leo, but it won't always be in the 10th house having a strong analogy with the leader of a nation. The problems that exist between the President and the Congress are not in dispute. They are cut off from each other at the moment.

Mercury ruler of the 9th in the 10th shows the inability of nations to help each other at this time. Look at the current condition of the US Stock market and its reactions to European and Asian markets. To call it mercurial is to be kind.

Of course the same can be done in natal astrology. Ruler of the 10th in aversion to the 10th indicates career difficulties. Ruler of the 7th in aversion to the 7th = difficulties with partnerships or enemies. This concept, and we've only scratched the surface, is very useful and very clear using whole sign house. We could use quadrant houses and the same concept and medieval astrologers probably did. But this is much neater. Hope it helped.

20
Hi Tom,

Thanks for your inputs with an example. I think now I understand how to use aversion better.

I had few questions in my mind:
1. Does Cancer & Leo, considered to be having the same domicile ruler as per Ibn Ezra, helps to avert the aversion of the Sun in Cancer to Leo?
Generally how effective are the aversion mitigation principles - having same ruler, antiscia, etc? Do we need to consider them during interpretation?
2. If the domicile ruler is in aversion to the house and is in detriment or fall, but the triplicity ruler is in trine to the house and it is in its domicile (or exaltation), will the house produce good results?

I know I am going little deep involving aversion now. However it will be helpful if somebody can throw some light on this.

Thanks,
Vasanth

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I love the enthusiasm, but remember what I wrote: I'm new to this.

Part of the problem with astrology and maybe more in traditional astrology is the plethora of authorities. So I've developed a different attitude when I see things such as what you mentioned by Ibn Ezra. I just try to keep it in mind and never, ever adopt it as a hard and fast rule applicable 100% of the time. If we adopt everything said by every authority we will get nowhere. Ibn Ezra was a clear thinking astrologer, but we are not under any obligation to take every word out of his mouth or from his pen as cast in stone. He approved of out-of-sign aspects (or at least out of sign conjunctions). Other authorities differ. No matter which way we turn we will be right in some eyes, wrong in others.

So I'll keep it in mind when I see Sun in Cancer that Ibn Ezra suggested we look at that a little differently because it makes sense to do so. If others wish to take that aphorism and follow it strictly, that's up to them. Astrology is nothing if it isn't a bit flexible and my turning into a scientist, or worse, an engineer, looking for hard and fast rules from which we cannot deviate is something that will never happen. In the example Cancer Ingress chart, the Sun (leader) being in aversion to the 11th (legislature) is too delicious to resist given the real world circumstances.

If the domicile ruler is in aversion to the house and is in detriment or fall, but the triplicity ruler is in trine to the house and it is in its domicile (or exaltation), will the house produce good results?
No. Dykes points out the obvious that conditions indicated by aversion are not in effect 24/7/365 from birth to death. A person with (using his example) a weak Venus in 12 ruling 11 is not condemned to a life without friendship or other 11th house gifts. Nor is that person free from difficulties in that area when Venus is weak. However when Venus is activated the difficulties with friendships are likely to arise. In his example Venus is in Gemini so the difficulties will arise in a Venus in Gemini way. If Venus is In Taurus in 5 in aversion to the 10th and activated Venus in Taurus type of activity will initiate difficulties in career, perhaps an independent streak emerges in front of the boss at the wrong time.

Dykes is saying to watch the planet in aversion when it is triggered (profection, direction, transit - whatever) and then the difficulties with aversion are more likely to manifest.

22
Hi Tom,
If we adopt everything said by every authority we will get nowhere.
Yes, I agree with this.

Hopefully by reading the important authorities, good working principles are extracted; that would help us to interpret the chart better.
Dykes is saying to watch the planet in aversion when it is triggered (profection, direction, transit - whatever) and then the difficulties with aversion are more likely to manifest.
Hmm.. maybe it is like - The ruler when activated needs to produce the goods of the house it is in, but since it is not able to see the house its rules (aversion), it is out of touch with its resources and hence behaves erratically and causes difficulties.

Vasanth

23
Hi

One of the important issues with aversion is to remember that dispositors do exactly that, they dispose, they are stewards, they manage their sign.

All the aspect words (remember, ad spectus = to see, looking at) in the Greek language have two meanings: 1st. some form of looking/seeing, and 2nd: witnessing, giving testimony (epimartureo if I'm not mistaken, the word merter comes from it, which is giving testimony in a very special way).

For a planet being able to perform this 'managing' of its sign, it must be able to see the sign (aspect is). When in aversion, it cannot see its sign, therefore does not know what is going on there (it is also in aversion to any planet possibly there), AND it cannot testify for it.

Mitigation of aversion is mentioned by many authors, yet never actually given in examples. But I have discovered how one of these works.
The following I wrote on that topic on another forum: her goes
Recently I have been studying book 7 of Valens about timing of planetary positions and aspects, using the ascensional times of the z?idia and the minor periods of the planets.
Some things have come to my notice that I?d like to share with you.

The most important issue of this is that I think I figured out that the mitigation of aversion by means of signs of equal ascension, most probably means that this mitigation is only active in specific times, and (perhaps) not all the time.
Here?s how that ?discovery? went.

Valens talks a lot about effects of malefics being assuaged and mitigated by benefics. Now, at first I thought he was talking about the usual effect of a malefic ? being active at a certain time ? being configured with a benefic. Thus the configured benefic helps to reduce the bad effects of the malefic at work, by means of being configured.

But this is not what Valens is talking about in this book. What he actually means is that a benefic becoming active in the same times, can help reduce or ?break down? the effects of the malefic.
Suppose Saturn is active in the 45th year. Now to Valens it is of major importance to find out if this Saturn is active alone, or together with one of the benefics in this year. He says (I quote from Robert Schmidt's translation):

?For this reason the compiler said that some stars are unprotected, some protected.
They are unprotected whenever the malefics effect something in chancing to be present alone;
but they are protected whenever, while the malefics are bringing [events] to completion, a benefic breaks down their power by supervening.
Whenever in the case of a nativity a figure of a benefic is found and has mastery over the times, the good will be full;
similarly also if the times of the testimonies of malefics are CO-BUSY, both [good and bad] will come about according to the nature of the stars and the zoidia.? (my emphasis)

Now what this means is that the benefic needs to be CO-BUSY with the activated malefic to be able to ?supervene? and break down or mitigate its bad influence. In other words, it also needs to be active in our hypothetical 45th year, together with the activation of Saturn.

Suppose Saturn where to be in a trigonal figure with Jupiter. This aspect will, to a certain extent, have an influence on Saturn. Valens (page 21):
?? those co-present or testifying are less powerful for beneficence or malefaction, but all the same they have strength, and especially whenever (as we said before) they occupy the z?idion or exaltation or trigon of a sect-mate?? Yet this positive trine influence seems to be strongly reduced if Jupiter isn?t also activated at the same time.

The simultaneous activation of Saturn and Jupiter can be because of many, many reasons. Jupiter might be the ruler of Saturn, or vice versa. Jupiter might be in a sign or a configuration that also gets activated in the 45th year.

Valens uses many, many devices for calculation of the periods of activation based on the following principles, and let?s use Saturn as the example here:
1. The minor period of the planet involved, so Saturn, 30 years, so when the native turns 29 (being in the 30th year), Saturn is active.
2. The ascensional time of the sign Saturn is placed in. When the ascensional period of the sign expires, Saturn is active in that period.
3. The minor period of the planet that rules the sign that Saturn is placed in. When the minor period of this dispositor expires, Saturn is active in that year.
4. The ascensional time of the sign where the planet that rules Saturn is placed in.
5. The sum of the minor period of Saturn and the minor period of the planet that rules the sign that Saturn is placed in.
6. The sum of the ascensional times of the sign where Saturn is in and of the sign where the planet that rules Saturn is placed in.
7. The sum of the minor period of Saturn and the ascensional time of the sign where the planet that rules Saturn is placed in.
8. The sum of the minor period of the planet that rules Saturn and the ascensional time of the sign Saturn is placed in.
9. Each of the values of the above 8 points can be divided as well, according to Valens (page 43): ?
Having found these precepts, then, with much suffering and much searching, and having made additional distinctions, we have exemplified them by means of the nativities??) divided by half, one-thirds and two-thirds (Valens: ?[chapter] 6. Teaching Concerning the Successful and Unsuccessful Times in Relation to 1/2, 1/3, and 2/3 of the Ascensions and the Periods of the Stars?

Valens? many examples show this technique at work and they are quite compelling. Including for example the nativities of no less than 6 sailors of the same vessel having all escaped pirates and shipwreck during the same voyage but at different times of their lives, as they all were of a different age and had different configurations at work during the voyage. Very interesting example.

Okay, back to mitigation through ascensional times.
It was the above realization that made sense of the mitigation of aversion through equal ascension. Valens makes a big deal of planets being at work ?in the same times?. Signs are activated according to their ascensional times. We all know that Aries/Pisces, Taurus/Aquarius, Gemini/Capricorn, Cancer/Sagittarius, Leo/Scorpio and Virgo/Libra share equal ascension. Four of these pairs are signs that are in aversion to each other: Aries/Pisces, Gemini/Capricorn, Cancer/Sagittarius and Virgo/Libra. But because they share their ascensional times, whatever planets are in those signs ? however much in aversion ? will start working and get activated when the year of the ascensional time of their respective sign arrives. Then they are at work together. And I assume that whenever this ascensional period ends, the co-working ? and thus the possible mitigation - also ends.

So in a sense we cannot say that during the ascensional-time-activation of the averse planets they ?start seeing each other?, because they remain averse and thus blind to each other. But we can say that due to heimarmene (?) the averse planets are active together, in the same timeframe. And when it is a malefic and a benefic being at work together, the benefic ?accidentally? breaks down the malefic effect. Again, not because of aspectual relationship, but because of simultaneous activation.

We probably all know that many Hellenistic authors ? including Valens ? mention the factors that mitigate aversion, but as far as I know Valens never actually uses them, which sheds doubt on whether or not these mitigating factors were actually endorsed by him at all. I believe he did use them, but merely in the chronocrator context, as explained here.
Valens says explicitly (book 7 page 21):
??and in another manner they [the stars] are intense [in regard to their] testimony if they are found in z?idia of equal ascension or in like-engirding z?idia, and especially whenever the z?idia are found to be pivotal or busy.?

The like-engirding z?idia also make sense in this chronocrator context. All of the like-engirding z?idia have different ascensional times, but they are ruled by the same domicile lord, which always gives its own minor period (and the fractions Valens suggests) for its signs in this timelord method. So any planet in Aries or Scorpio is active after 15 years, the minor period of Mars, even though these signs are averse. The same goes for the other like-engirding images.
Again, this mitigation might only be working in timelord context, not as a natal constant.

So, planets being in aversion under mitigating circumstances might simply be a natal promise. Namely, the promise that these two planets will eventually become active in the same timeframe(s), during one?s life.
When that timeframe has passed, they return to being in aversion, or rather: during the period of activation, their aversion does not hinder them in being active at the same time. They remain however, for all intents and purposes, in aversion natally.

The significance of this ?activation together? can be rather remarkable whenever the two planets in aversion have a rulership relation to each other.
Hermes

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Excellent presentation Hermes :'

That subject had been "bugging" me for quite a while and nothing I read until now made any sense, to me anyway. Even though I read many times Valens' work (from Schmidt), I never understood it [aversion] in the way you have explained.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and understanding of Valens.


james