Hermes wrote:

Again a convincing argument for the whole sign house system IMO

.

I accept that whole sign profections seem powerful and do work in the natal work I have done. However, I dont believe we live in a black and white universe where only one approach is correct. Call me a relativist if you like. In any case you can still progress angles like the ascendant using whole sign houses.

I understand from Benjamin Dykes the Persian and Arabic astrologers mostly used an equal house type arrangement for their profections. In other words they profected a year as 30 degrees from the natal ascendant and then consecutively on each house cusp the same way.

So to be accurate there were three of methods of 'profections':

1 The whole sign method-described by various hellenistic astrologers.

2 The equal house method-used by Persian and Arabic astrologers.

3 The quadrant house method-developed in the late medieval renaissance period.

I am not that familiar with the 2nd or 3rd methods. Using the renaissance method here was an experiment on my part. It is offered tenatively for several reasons. Firstly, I simply haven't done enough research yet to see whether profecting key angles, and /or the Sun, Moon, POF, etc in a chart work consistently at key junctures or not.

Still the fact it has worked so spectacularly here has got me very interested in this method. I would prefer an accurately timed chart to test this out although I must say I have been impressed how well the 1066 has worked using just about every method in the toolbox.

There are other ways to refine profections of course. For example you can look at the 12 sign sub-periods of each annual whole sign profection. You start with the sign on the profected ascendant for month 1 and work through the year.

Mark

Hi Margherita,

The second method is progressing the cusps of the house, almost like Solar Fire. But especially the five hylegiacal places: Asc., MC, Sun, Moon, Fortune. Rumen Kolev published in his booklet "Gauricus and Henry II" a picture from Vindobonensis palatinus 5179 (1460) like this. For example Ascendant was at 27 Virgo, so the next year 27 Libra, the 3rd year 27 Scorpio and so on. Generally I use this method, which is Cieloeterra one (they use a variant, but this is the idea)

In the later method - let's call the Renaissance one- there is no such a problem of intercepted signs, because you should not progress the cusps, you should progress the signs. Let's say that Ascendant falls at 27 Leo and the second house at 3 Libra. The Ascendant the first year is at 27 Leo, then the same at 27 Virgo.

I am clear about the hellenistic method from which profections originated. In that method sign=house so there is no ambiguity. One can imagine the chart spinning with the first profection after year one bringing whole house/sign 2 to the ascendant.

In the renaissance method the angles stay the same while the sign background change? But if profections are calculated throughout the year surely the angles etc will appear to move throughout the year no?

Are you suggesting the method for profecting the ascendant I used from SF is not the same as the renaissance method?

I recall William Lilly discusses profections in Christian Astroogy. I will take a look I think

Mark

Andrew wrote:

Is there anything about the profected ascendants conjunction with the eclipse that gives indication to the particulars? Is it the involvement of the 1st house that shows disturbance coming from the people, or could it in another instance have involved an accident, the Royal family or the Prime Minister being forced to resign?

Hi Andrew,

I think the point here is that no one indicator is sufficient in itself. My view is that the mundane astrologer needs to be like a detective putting together a description of a suspect from various eye witnesses. Each chart helps to fill in more detail.

We had a solar and lunar eclipse along the ASC-DESC axis. The solar eclipse on January 4th in particular had the luminaries on the ASC. The 1st house is an indicator of the people as is the Moon.

A double indicator of a focus on the people. Plus of course the Moon was in its detriment in Capricorn in the solar eclipse chart. The key ingress of the year is the Aries ingress (in a fixed sign). In that chart Mars (ASC ruler) is on the IC. Plus the MC ruler (Mercury) is opposing the Moon. That clearly shows a theme of civil protest and opposition to the government in some shape or form.

Planets on the IC often indicate opposition to the government. For example in Thailand last year the Sun was on the IC in the Aries ingress chart. It was opposing Saturn on the MC. I think the presence of Lord 1 near the IC and Lord 10 opposing the Moon make this suggestion very strong in the Aries ingress located for London.

Mark

Mark wrote:
I am clear about the hellenistic method from which profections originated. In that method sign=house so there is no ambiguity. One can imagine the chart spinning with the first profection after year one bringing whole house/sign 2 to the ascendant.

It should be obviously like that. Whole house system should be a method with no astronomy required. And from this to move every year a sign/house is easy to imagine.

Are you suggesting the method for profecting the ascendant I used from SF is not the same as the renaissance method?

I recall William Lilly discusses profections in Christian Astrology. I will take a look I think

I gave a look too. It seems to me he uses the 5 hylegiacal places too.

I don't think Solar Fire is wrong, just that Renaissance authors were more concerned about planets, they did not care for other cusps other than Asc. and MC.

The same Francesco Giuntini in the Speculum
margherita

Margherita wrote:

The second method is progressing the cusps of the house, almost like Solar Fire. But especially the five hylegiacal places: Asc., MC, Sun, Moon, Fortune. Rumen Kolev published in his booklet "Gauricus and Henry II" a picture from Vindobonensis palatinus 5179 (1460) like this. For example Ascendant was at 27 Virgo, so the next year 27 Libra, the 3rd year 27 Scorpio and so on.

I think this is where I got a bit confused by your comments as superficially this sounds quite similar to the whole sign method. However, looking at this again the implication which you dont explicitly state is that in between 27 Virgo and 27 Libra we can track the ascendant moving through these signs over the year. I think the traditional notion of concentrating on the five hylegiacal places: Asc., MC, Sun, Moon, Fortune is very interesting. I will be exploring this further in my charts. Although I think in mundane work I may include other planets too. I still think I will be using whole sign profections though. The renaissance method doesn't need to contradict whole sign houses.

Mark

Why not just take the Greater London chart, left ? Plus this year's solar, right. See (e.g.) Mars tr. conj. Moon, main chart.
Regards
LL

Why not just take the Greater London chart, left ? Plus this year's solar, right. See (e.g.) Mars tr. conj. Moon, main chart.
Regards
LL

Hi Lunlumo,

Good to hear from you again. Excellent idea to look at charts for London itself too. Undertandably they reveal a lot too.

I suppose my only problem with this chart is that the Greater London Council (1965) was was abolished in 1985. Although that hasn't stopped a few UK based astrologers still posting up this chart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_London_Council

Like dead people I dont doubt the the old GLC chart might still respond to astrological transits etc.

However, I think we can do better. I did some personal research on this topic a few years ago to try and track down times for the creation of the new government for London ie the London Assembly and the new office of London Mayor which came into existence in 2000.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3259

I managed to find an exact time for the first meetiing of the new London Assembly:

Its 2.30pm on Friday 12/05/2000. Westminster, London.

I derived this exact time from an online link to the London assembly where I located the time. Unfortunately, the link I previously used seems to have gone dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Assembly
Spot the MC degree. As noted earlier the traditional astrological degree of London is 14 Gemini!

The London Mayoral elections took place on thursday May 4th 2000 and the results seem to have been declared either late in the evening of May 4th or early hours of May 5th. I never did manage to track down an official announcement time.

In any case Ken Livingstone , didn't officially take up full powers as first London Mayor until Monday July 3rd 2000.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 492481.stm

Its seems reasonable to time the chart for London Mayor from 00.00 hours on that day. I am not aware of any formal ceremony inaugurating the Mayor on that day so I would work on this time unless anyone has any other information.
The chart has obviously been hit by the solar eclipse for January 4th 2011 which took place at 13 Capricorn.

No time for current Mayor, Boris Johnson who was born on 19th June 1964. Interestingly for New York City, USA. He had dual nationality until he renounced his US citizenship in 2006. I timed the chart for Sun at midday. Even without the chart angles it seems Johnson's Sun/Venus were affected by the Lunar Eclipse on Dec 21 2010 at 29? Gemini 21'.

Here is a bi-wheel with the chart for London Mayor in the inner wheel and solar arcs timed for the outbreak of the riots.
Venus -Lord 8 on the radix Moon. Mercury (DESC +IC ruler) on radix Moon. Solar arc SN on radix Neptune. SA Jupiter (ASC ruler) opposing radix Pluto.

Here is the 2011 Solar return chart for the London Mayor.

Hi Mark,
thanks for responding with such a lot of valuable material.
Seeing/hearing that London is traditionally linked with Gemini, among others Gemini-mayors etc...
...allow me to go back to the roots: i.e. Londinium. It came into being - according to Wikipedia - in the year 47 ("probable year"). Well, the evidence for that is not striking, but I felt invited to have a closer look.

Now, please, do not say "rubbish" too quickly: as I have explained on the basis of lots of examples one can cast a chart based on the position of the sun at exactly degree 15 of the fixed signs, starting with 15:00 Aquarius. (I introduced this in a German forum). One can do a lot with these charts,e.g. calculate the Lunar preceding a Native's birth etc. Now, the sun at 15 Aquarius correlates with the Chinese start of the New Year. As far as I have seen these charts have a lot to tell - and at times a lot more than those based with the sun on at the first degrees of the Cardinal signs.
I have called these charts "Octilogrammes" ("Oktilogramm" in German).
Now, this is the OG for London 47:
AC 10 degrees GE,- MA opposing. I used to travel to London quite often in the good old days (where have they gone?) - and I find this is really most typical for the London character.
The chart on the left is the Octilogramme London 47, the chart on the right theTertiary Progressions for the days when the mob was about to rule London.
You may also try transits for both the basis chart and the chart with the Tertiary Progressions (e.g. see Mars, Uranus, Pluto...)
Of course I might also have chosen a Septar, a chart with the secondary progressions etc...

Sorry, not in English: http://wiki.astro.com/astrowiki/de/Oktilogramm

Regards
LL

Hi Lunlumo,

I translated your wiki piece on google translate. So you are Klaus Wessel the creator of the Oktilogramm? Is this idea purely your own or does it owe anything to German astrology such as the Munich school or Uranian astrology? Personally I think it would have been preferable to leave discussion of this completely innovative technique to a thread of its own. However, I found space to indulge my interest in profections here so it would seem prejudiced to curtail discussion of your technique known as the Oktilogramm. I do think a more modern example of your techniqiue might be more useful. For example, for England now with a delineation of the last fixed sign quarter (Taurus).

In principle the technique seems identical to the normal ingress chart except you use the quarters derived from the fixed signs rather than cardinal signs. Philosophically what is the logic of using fixed rather than cardinal signs?

In western astrology cardinal signs symbolize the process of initiation reflecting the Sun's movement into a fresh season represented astrologically by the cardinal signs in the tropical zodiac. The four cardinal quaters mark the begining of a season and therefore give the quality of what is to come. With fixed signs we are located in the middle of a season. I assume 15 degrees is selected to be exactly in the middle of a seasonal quarter. You therefore assume this will give you a representative sample of the essence of that seasonal quarter? Do any of the fixed sign quarters have more significance in your approach?

I wish my high school German wasn't so rusty. Your 50 page booklet on the system looks very interesting. I see references to the I Ching and Runes which are also interests of mine.

I hope you realise those with prominent mutability are now going to demand equality in mundane astrology.

Mark

Hi Mark,
I do apologize for my answer being so short (packing my bags, going on holiday...)
Neither Munich School of Astrolgy, nor the Hamburg Uranians - the Octilogram was an idea of my own.

"I hope you realise those with prominent mutability are now going to demand equality in mundane astrology." - ?? - A lack of comprehension on my side, due to my lingual insufficiencies, I'm afraid. (My command of English used to be a better one..) Moreover: "profection"? - I'm afraid I have not been able to fully grasp the meaning of that word. ? - The word can't be found in any of my dictionaries, not even in my "Webster's" (1600 pages !, admittedly American)

Ok, I'll try to explain that in another thread - however I do not really know how to be concise there. And there'll be an example, possibly but not necessarily a British one.

LL

Lunlumo wrote:

"I hope you realise those with prominent mutability are now going to demand equality in mundane astrology." - ?? - A lack of comprehension on my side, due to my lingual insufficiencies, I'm afraid. (My command of English used to be a better one..)

Sorry my attempt at humour. We have conventional ingress charts based on cardinal signs and you propose quarters based on fixed signs. So I was jesting what about a system of mutable quarters to cover all the signs ie Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius, Pisces?

Lunlumo wrote:

Moreover: "profection"? - I'm afraid I have not been able to fully grasp the meaning of that word. ? - The word can't be found in any of my dictionaries, not even in my "Webster's" (1600 pages !, admittedly American)

Its discussed for nearly a full page of this thread before your post. I have also just posted about the ancient and medieval technique known as profections in the Norway thread. I dont really want to repeat all that again here.

Lunlumo wrote:

Ok, I'll try to explain that in another thread - however I do not really know how to be concise there. And there'll be an example, possibly but not necessarily a British one.

Fine. I only suggested Britain as its meant to be the focus of this particular thread.

I do apologize for my answer being so short (packing my bags, going on holiday...)

No need to apologise. Enjoy your holiday!

Mark