I am pretty sure that the key to a correct prediction is the hierarchy of testimonies. There are a very few 'clear - cut' charts with unequivocal testimonies for a specific scenario. A good deal of of charts are pretty contradictory and confusing when it comes to predicting what is going to happen.

There might be many eventual scenarios but only one will happen. And which one it will be will tell you the hiearchy of testimonies. The problem is that we do not know exactly which one shall prevail, opinions which one is stronger are contradictory, etc. Morin had started the discussion of the hieararchy of testimonies 4 centuries ago, but I think we should discuss it again from a modern perspective.

Back to the horary, the only testimony that the affair would resume is the antisca relationship between Jupiter and Mercury. Antisca relationship (you may take signs and not bother with degrees) in football charts tends to draw. This conclusion with respect to the horary may show that the parties would reconcile, speak things out, etc.

I could allow that the antisca relationship might signify a resumption of the affair if there were no more convincing testimonies on the contrary - angular Moon, her sig, applying to trine culminating Saturn (almuten of MC and lord of hour).

Moon's aspects not favouring the querent's desires may only be outweighed if there were a powerful application between the main sigs (and that one is not an opposition). However, which one is closer to a partile one shall prevail or if there is no big difference (few degrees do not matter if both are away from partile for more than 5 degrees) the one which perfects from an angle shall prevail.

Yet, Lilly allows almost 3 pages on the topic in Christian Astrology, pg 90-92. Here he says that a planet by his antiscia will give virtue or influence to any Star or planet that is either in the same degree or casts aspect unto it. His interpretation of the contrantiscia on pg 187 could mean that the antiscia shows a situation of unity. However, on pg 92 he says the antiscia of the good planets are thought equal to a sextile or trine.

I do not know any horary where Lilly had demontrated how his opinion works in practice. I doubt whether it equals to a trine or even sextile if cast by a benific planet as Lilly would have us believe. I agree that planet has an effect on this or other kind of things (signified by house wherein the antisca falls or by sig on which it falls), but this effect is by far weaker than a trine or even sextile from a benefic planet. This is much in line with Morin where he lists the hiearchy how a planet affects the things signified by this or other house. The strongest one is by bodily placement in the house, the weakest one is by antisca falling in the relevant house.

From football charts - a sig or POF conjunct or oppose a malefic by body is by far stronger than its (sig's or POF's) antisca conjunct or oppose a malefic or the antisca of a malefic conjoin or oppose the sig (POF). In case of benefic I prefer a trine from the same benefic rather than its antisca falling on the sig.

Janis wrote:I do not know any horary where Lilly had demontrated how his opinion works in practice. I doubt whether it equals to a trine or even sextile if cast by a benific planet as Lilly would have us believe. I agree that planet has an effect on this or other kind of things (signified by house wherein the antisca falls or by sig on which it falls), but this effect is by far weaker than a trine or even sextile from a benefic planet. This is much in line with Morin where he lists the hiearchy how a planet affects the things signified by this or other house. The strongest one is by bodily placement in the house, the weakest one is by antisca falling in the relevant house.

I agree. In my experience the antiscia works like a weak conjunction with an orb of 1?, and I never had reason to believe that the aspect of one planet to the antiscia of another was significant. However, I am stuck on the notion of equal signs or signs/degrees that 'see one another' (Manilius). It's like some sort of resonnanse or similarity, or being in the same place or on shelves of a similar level. this makes is possible to connect, relate or pass on, as things come by. I do observe what seems to be consequential reaction where that what is signified by a planet in one part of the chart is transposed to an event or circumstance in the place of the antiscia.

At the when the Moon was directed to the Descendant, applying 1? = 1 month in time, at this point two months ago, the woman decided to spend the holidays with her husband to try and work on the marriage again. At this time the contact between the querent and the woman is suspended, and there has been no contact since. It would that the Moon's journey through the cadent 6th, into Gemini and to the angular 7th, has to do with becoming aware of things. The 5? though Gemini to the descendant, show issues of a non-permanent nature but that provokes a turning-point and brings matters to light.

We all agree that Saturn culminating in the South is important. If Uranus had been in the South, the interpretation of the chart had been entirely different.

Andrew,

I and the Forum I'm sure would be very interested in the outcome of this horary. As I've answered one with Lilly's 'Considerations before Judgment' as in the following and the querant became hostile with the verdict.

CA I page 122:

"You must also be wary, when in any question propounded you find the Cusp of the seventh house afflicted, or the Lord of that house Retrograde, or impedited, and the matter at that time not concerning the seventh house, but belonging to any other house, it?s an argument the judgment of the Astrologer?s will give small content, or any thing please the Querent; for the seventh house generally hath signification of the Artist."

And as said the querant didn't like what the horary said.

Clinton Garrett Soule

OK, this thread pops up again. Maybe there's a reason for it. For me to look at the chart again, that is. And right now I kind of disagree with what I've said before. So here's my refurbished take on this chart:

1. I still don't like the fact that there are three persons involved but enough about it.

2. The Querent is not a saint because he is in the 5th house of affairs and those kind of things -- and L1 is peregrine which suggests he knows right from wrong but wants to take the wrong road.

3. She is a naughty girl herself and probably naughtier than him as evidenced by a lot of things -- the South Node and scandalous Mars to name a few. But that's just an opinion and kind of not very relevant.

4. The affair just ended or at least went sour as evidenced by the fact that Venus (the Lord of the affair) has just entered Virgo where she is in her Fall and in Jupiter's (the Querent) Detriment.

Venus will make an aspect to Jupiter but she will be combust, cadent and still in the debilities of both herself and Jupiter. So it means it's not going back where it once was.

5. The 10th house according to some authors (one of them is Vivian Robson) represents what will happen to the relationship. So if we look at Moon -- she separates from Venus (the affair), i.e., that's what happened and she is applying to Saturn (that's what's going to happen) which exalts in the 10th. Saturn is in close hateful square with Mars which represents the woman's romantic life so most probably she is not so much into him anymore. For that reason or another but badly afflicted Saturn means that the relationship will hit a brick wall (if that's not what has already happened).

6. She is represented by a Rx Mercury that just pulled out of the combustion and is going to become direct again soon. Mercury makes a square aspect with L1 (Jupiter) but that's not going to happen. That's another NO for the love birds. So we could say she kind of wised up (not combust anymore) and is about to mend her ways a little bit.

7. If we look at the 10th house as the house of her family (the 4th from the DSC) we would see Saturn being afflicted badly by Mars that represents her 'romantic' life and is kind of obvious in this case - cheating etc. Since Moon transfers the light from Venus (L10 and the Dispositor of Saturn) to Saturn, we probably could say there is an attempt to bring some integrity back to the family but that will be very hard to do.

Well, even if point #7 is just my speculation, IMHO points #4-6 of my brilliant analysis suggest that the affair is over and there is not going to be any more or less serious relationship between the Querent and that lady.

CS wrote:I and the Forum I'm sure would be very interested in the outcome of this horary. As I've answered one with Lilly's 'Considerations before Judgment' as in the following and the querant became hostile with the verdict.

Status is that the woman went back to her husband two months ago and there has been no contact between the querent and the woman since. The querent respects the woman's situation and decision, but is naturally very hurt. He contacted an astrologer to get a distance to his own emotional pain. He did not complain regarding judgement, not one with one word, and blamed nobody other than himself for getting involved with a woman who had not settled her marraige.

Dear andrew

I see that you mentioned saturn is the friend of moon. I am quite familiar with this idea. I assume that you use this as a minor testimony.
ex, moon beholding saturn by square -> they are friends -> the malevolence of the square is alivated.

Is this how you use this "friendship of planets"?

Or have you found any other practical implications of this beyond
what i have described.

i am asking a question about this because i cant resist the feeling that
this technique has something more than that.
When Evangelin Adams predicted fire in the hotel that she was staying
she mentioned something like "unfriendly planets were beholding each others in hostile aspect". So im just curious if there is any practicality you found using this technique. i have to add that i have purchased most of the books written by her and it was purly rubbish. they were not academic books but rather written for ignorant people to kill time, basicly the main topic was sun sign astrology.

sincerely

jun

junibus wrote:I see that you mentioned saturn is the friend of moon. I am quite familiar with this idea. I assume that you use this as a minor testimony. ex, moon beholding saturn by square -> they are friends -> the malevolence of the square is alivated.

Is this how you use this "friendship of planets"?

Thank you for this interesting question. However;

In the first post I wrote:Neither is the Moon, Lady of the Day, a friend of Saturn.

So just to tidy up on the misunderstanding, the Moon and Saturn are not considered friends because of the contrary in their natural powers, ie. moist and dry, and Saturn is a malelic who doesn't get along with an awful lot of planets. This being said, I use the system a lot and while any friendship between the Lord of the Day and the Lord of the Hour forms a reasonable base in the chart, and the friendship between the Lord of the Hour and the Lord of the radical ascendant may give a quick confirmation in judgement, the disagreement of the forementioned, ie. if these planets are enemies is always a warning of controversy, infection, ill or restriction. In the question at hand the combination of Moon and Saturn restrains the desires of the querent.

I share some of my ideas on this matter on my website (Link) in an article on the planetary hours. The general idea is that some simple keys from classical astrology can be swiftly used to gather information and pass judgement on horary questions. In short it has to do with the Lord of the Hour being proper for the question demanded. In example, the Moon promotes questions regarding fertility, but any combination with the Saturn causes some delay or restriction, and the Moon combined with Mars causes tempers and infection. Saturn and Mars alone to not promote matters of fertility. Mercury would also corrupt.

Using this approach, the first condition is whether the moment is proper and beneficial for the question at hand. If you are looking for bread it is no use if the Bakers shop is closed and there is no use in going to the Butcher for the same purpose. So it has to do with knocking at the right door at the right time. The office must be open. In a general sense I view the Lord of the Hour as the agent who holds office, like a shop attendant, while the Lord of the Day is more like the shop manager or owner. The manager or owner is somewhere in the background at a higher livel. Generally, it is the person behind the counter, the Lord of the Hour, who attends your needs, but if this doesn't work - it could be possible to take matters through to the owner or manager, although this may be more tedious.

I invite you to look up on these ideas, if you are interested. (Link)

ah ha! what an insight.

1. on planetary hours

"Using this approach, the first condition is whether the moment is proper and beneficial for the question at hand. If you are looking for bread it is no use if the Bakers shop is closed and there is no use in going to the Butcher for the same purpose."

This is very illuminationg. My collegues doesnt make awful lot of use of hour ruler and for that matter many classical astrologers that ive met. I def. make a good use of it but never beyond of telling if the querent is lying or serious etc as bonatti mentioned.

In your horoscope, i would have been more stern and my wording would
have been more confident such as "you already know that its not going to work out between you an her. you came here asking me a horary question
just to see if the stars might tell you something that you want to hear against all odds." something like that. anyways this is not my point.

my point is that a "radical" chart showing a right moment is very insightful and i have never thought about it like that. so much thanks to you.

However, while reading your link which seems to be a tremendous treasure
box to me, i am compelled to ask you this question.

on, "guidelines for casting judgement..."
you have mentioned much things and i find myself at odds.
for example #7 makes much sense since triplicity signifies cooperation,
things done by good luck etc.

1.however why did you give a preference to hour ruler when he and asc ruler are of same strenght?

2. and are these findings your inference or is it based on any particular texts?

From my reading, I find all of these very insightful, not only acceptable but laudable. I am seriously going to incorporate these principles into my practice. i see that you are QHP that is amazing. did you study with Ms. Barcklay? I wish she was still alive. although it was very very long time ago,
i read her works so im in forever her debt.

2. On friendships/hostility of the planets.

First of all, sorry for the mix up. I am familiar with this concept but i dont
have a first hand experience with this. I came across this idea from Lilly
and Al-biruni and many more, however Ive never incorporated them into my
practice. Obviously i did not commited them into my memory yet.

I have the book of instuction... by myside and ill refer to it while im writing this post. You have mentioned that since moon and saturn are not friendly
to each other and Al-biruni says they are "indifferent" which is def. not a sign of friendship.

You also said that since they are not friends, saturn will cause delay and troubles etc. however is this because saturn is not friendly to moon or because saturn is a natural malefic?

Saturn will always cause delay and troubles and even if the business is passed, it is not without some hinderance since he is natual malefic.

According to Al-biruni, mars and saturn are friends. Thus do you think saturn
would withhold his malevolance (delay and troubles)?

Let me repharese that, since they are friends, do you think mars and saturn
conjunction, disregarding reception, would not be harmful?

The bottomline is that I am trying to get more insight on the friendlyness and
enimity of planets so that I can systemetically incorporate this into my practice.

much thanks to you in advance and sorry for bombording you with
bunch of questions but as you know, now days, not many astrologers
incorporate the these two above mentioned concepts even if they were
strongly emphasized in old texts, and i believe this is due to the lack of
explanations.

sincerely

Jun

Thank you very much for your interest, Junibus. I am very pleased if you have found something useful or something that you can 'work on'. However, I am not quite sure how I can respond to your questions here without the discussion ending up 'off topic'.

One of the exciting things with Skyscript is that there are members here who are extremely well versed into classical astrology and with considerable libraries. This makes the forum a great place to discuss our various practical approaches to astrology, which are mainly rooted in the traditional. Although there are some of us that also will wander off in exploration. My website is not up for discussion. Hopefully, you will find some resources there, but then there are subjects I have treated where other competent astrologers will disagree and be of a different approach. It is all a part of being in the 'work pit' where we all contribute to sorting things out and will collectively 'get there' in the end.

Yes, I did study under Olivia Barclay and was head to head with Carol Wilson in being the first person to complete the QHP course. Carol Wilson was the first person to get her final paper passed by Olivia in 1986. Maybe we could settle in saying I came as a good no 2? I am so glad to learn that you enjoy Olivia's writing. There are so many of us here at Skyscript that are indebt to her work.

Andrew, this is very exciting and certainly not disappointing for your posting
ending "off topic". This is a great start, and Ive found some practical use of hour rulers beyond simply using them to judge a chart to be fit or not. I will play around with them and definitly share some insights with you later. thank you for your help.