Clelia Romano wrote:Hello Goran:

you said:

I don't think this can be reduced to a question of Ptolemy's opinion vs. others. The Sun is clearly capable of being anareta.

It can be anareta, and all the planets can be as well. But this does not change the idea that Sun and Moon are the lights, specially the Sun is the generator principle and the more important "planet", the only to have its own light which is lent to all the other planetes.
The Sun and the Moon, the luminary of night and that is the luminous body nearer the earth has a not controverse meaning of the preferred hyleg or givers of life, beyond all the other points and planets: they come first and the same Ptolemy teaches us that in absence of Sun and Moon as hyleg to use the planet with more fortitude in the place of them.
But these big lords are subject to time, as all the others, or saying in other words, life is subject to time, so when the circumbulations arrive to the point of death, the universal givers of life of course are a big part of the scenery. If they are not able to bring life anymore, then you can say in a figurative way that they are " causing death", but this is the same as saying that the sky is cloudy and somber because the Sun killed the light.
In other words, the Sun, having so much power as giver of life, if his job is still done, and it is time, the person will die. We can see that the time is coming using predictive techniques.

Clelia

Well, death can ensue prior to the expiration of the years signified by the dignified Sun/Moon as in the Ledger's chart. What I'm saying is that, for instance, a bad contact between the Sun/Moon via primary directions, together with appropriate solar return/profections indicators can cause death much sooner than shown by alcochoden's years - or as you put it, before the Sun's/Moon's job is done.

But as I always say, Ptolemaic method is the only one we have tons of examples.

astrojin wrote: If by examples, we mean chart exemplification of techniques (as it should be defined), then Ptolemy did not give any. If by examples, we mean exemplification of techniques, then yes, Ptolemy usually lists out methods of doing analysis and what they mean (which were copied by many authors after him).
Valens on the other hand, gives lots of technqiues (albeit not in a very systematic way) but he gave more than a hundred chart examples (no doubt that he was a practitioner, whereas it is doubtful that Ptolemy was!).

As I mentioned in a different thread, whatever numbers we arrive at using alchocoden only gives us the figure for vitality. A strong anaretic direction/solar return/profection/transit could kill before years of the alchocoden is reached and a weak anaretic direction/... could also kill after the alchocoden years is reached.

Zoller also relates a case of a friend of his having the Sun in Aries in the 1st house who lived only 60 years. Mars was in the 6th opposing to something in the 12th, I have to review the text. All the medieval authorities ( that I can remember) agree that if the years of the alchocodem are not completed the person can cope with a big problem against their life but will not die.

There is the possibility that the Sun in Aries is not able to be Hyleg and Alchocodem, because he is ruled by a malefic?My father has this configuration, Sun in Aries in the 9th and is 92 years old now. But he has Mars angular in Scorpio?.
Many variables, hu?

cor scorpii wrote:(if I remember correctly, it was Ptolemy alone who allowed for hyleg/alcochoden relationship without an aspect)

Zoller also relates a case of a friend of his having the Sun in Aries in the 1st house who lived only 60 years. Mars was in the 6th opposing to something in the 12th, I have to review the text. All the medieval authorities ( that I can remember) agree that if the years of the alchocodem are not completed the person can cope with a big problem against their life but will not die.

As always, one example doesn't prove nor disprove anything. If we discard the Sun in Aries as alcochoden in this case and go straight to its ruler, Mars, it would also have difficulties providing 60 years of life by being cadent and probably also in aversion to the Sun(if I remember correctly, it was Ptolemy alone who allowed for hyleg/alcochoden relationship without an aspect) -

I think that an example can prove, yes. It can prove that the theory was wrong.The man I used as example was not wanting to die , was not a suicide or a drug addict.

Mars, being the rule of the ASC and falling amiss in a bad house did not bode well if you suppose 120 years of life. I would not use Mars as Alchocodem or as Hyleg, differently of what you understood I would. I was saying that we have to look the chart as a whole. The Sun in Aries in the ASC or in the 10th is unable to provide its great years if the chart can?t support that.
In this kind of cases the best is to take the Sun and verify the problematic directions he will cope to. If in that time some benefic is not interfering the native will die. This is my theory and I?m trying to work with it, in the present time of my knowledge. Maybe later, studying more, I will have a different approach.

There is the possibility that the Sun in Aries is not able to be Hyleg and Alchocodem, because he is ruled by a malefic[/b]?My father has this configuration, Sun in Aries in the 9th and is 92 years old now. But he has Mars angular in Scorpio

?.

Gora said:

I'm not saying I read everything available on hyleg/acochoden issue, but I've never bumped into this piece of information - could you provide us with a source of this claim?

No, I can?t. I never read that in any author. But it is what I learned studying many charts. You can?t give all the years provided by a planet if you have malefics in bad places, benefics weaker than them, etc.
On the other hand, if you have benefics strong by place and essential nature you can think that the native will live more than the alchocodem lesser years.

The ancient authors forgot to say:" use the common sense";-)

As for your father, the length of his life fits nicely with the Sun in Aries being simultaneously hyelg/alcochoden.On the other hand, if we take Mars as alcochoden, it would only grant him 66 years(his greater years) - again, without taking other factors into account which may magnify the time span allotted by applying to alcochoden

.

Yes, I agree. But as I said before, I would not take Mars as alchocodem, even because he is inconjunct to the Sun, which is a good thing, BTW.

The Sun/Moon in their greatest dignities and angular are able to provide 120/105 years(theoretically) - how many people live that long in reality? There is a big discrepancy between the number of people having strong alcochoden and the length of life actually realized(being shorter than expected/indicated).

The same goes for those who live substantially longer than 'promised' by the state of their alcochoden.

I fully agree: and it is because the length of life depends not only on the Hyleg ( and Alchocodem) but on all the rest of significators.
So, how to predict the length of life? I confess I?m estimating the number of years approximately, more than X, less than Y, and through the directions and other kind of predictions tools, using potential killers in the chart, versus theirs behavior, I can reach a time when life will suffer some or much harm.

I?m translating Masha?allhah so his teachings are very present in my mind: he does not accept the Sun in Aries or Leo or the Moon in Cancer or Taurus as Hyleg and Alchocodem: as I said before, he would chose as Hyleg, in Heather?s case the POF and Saturn as Alchocodem. The Moon would be discharged because he only accepts an alchocodem with dignity of rulership or exaltation ( for the luminaries). As Saturn smaller years are 30 we can see that it would have worked fine in Ledger?s longevity, with or without drugs.

Best

Clelia

jupiter1st wrote:Clelia, the Moon is domicile. She is convenient for hyleg position. Domicile Moon is a stronger hyleg candidate than exalted Sun. I didn't try to find 29 for Ledger since I've already known he died at that age. I strictly applied the rules and found 29. I did it earlier for Van Gogh as well. I was shocked when I found Van Gogh's life span astrologically. I am not that stunned now because I know that this method usually gives accurate results. In Ledger's case Venus gives 29 years. It is not a coincidence. Check the aspects and position of Venus. Can you deny that she gives 29 years? How many of you guys have Venus giving 29 years of life period? Ledger has it and he died at 29. It is a very specific situation. I can hardly think it is a coincidence.

I told you guys earlier that Domicile/Exalted lights can not be both hyleg and alchohoden. Clelia and others objected to that. I now see that Clelia and many of you guys understood it can't be that way.