Greeting forum members,

I'm working on a complex chart on theft, and rereading Lillys chapter on it, i see he commonly referrs to one planet giving virtue to another (which would indicate that the theft did occor, if L1 for e.g gave virtue to L7 or significator of the thief. Can anyone explain what he means?

Also, in the chart there are many apsects that are out of orb, should I ignore them or consider? For e.g. Lilly referrs to an opposition or square between L1 and significator of theft (indicating that yes it did occur), in my chart i see that the significators are applying to an opposition (although still out of orb), but the theft already has taken place. So i'm not sure how to apply Lilly's rule here. Thanks in advance!

To give vertue = to cast an aspect therewith, usually a sextill or a trifle.

About the orbs, giveth an example, otherwise thy question be too generall thereby.

Hi Elumen! I think Sue Ward says it best here:

The nature, or virtue, of each planet is carried on its light or rays which it transmits to other planets; this notion of transmission of light is central to the astrological scheme and explains the principle of aspecting. When two planets meet by application, their rays intermingle and from that the astrologer can deduce an action or event. However for that meeting to occur, account needs to be taken of the amount of light each planet ?emits?, in other words, the distance the planets? orbs traverse...

The Moon when void of course is impedited because it cannot carry out its task of transferring planetary virtues. But, as Lilly?s examples will show, this does not necessarily preclude judgement. It might show, though, that the querent has less influence unless the other significators are strong and active.

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~sueward/a ... 0lilly.htm

As far as I understand, it is not just about planets making aspects, but it is also about their own planetary nature, meaning their basic tendencies due to their planetary signification, but also their essential and accidental dignities, and the aspect type and orb of influence (as well as receptions). Virtue is carried by aspects. For example, Saturn's general nature is that of being the Greater Malefic, the most superior or unchangeable/unyielding, cold and dry by nature. When Mercury, a changeable inferior, aspects him, Mercury is greatly impacted by Saturn's nature, aka its light or virtue, and becomes much more like Saturn or influenced by Saturn's nature in some capacity. Whether this 'virtue' that Mercury is picking up from Saturn is more positive or negative depends on, again the aspect type, dignities, reception, etc. (obviously Saturn tends to bring more harm or obstacles than good, though). The superiors' nature are much more forceful than the inferiors', generally, as well (arguably an angular and dignified Mercury in a dexter aspect could be pretty forceful, though, no?). Mercury would be much more like Saturn and would also transfer the nature, or virtue or light, of Saturn to the chart/answer and whatever planet it aspects next. It would be almost as if Mercury was Saturn, such as when aspecting other planets (again, he is much more changeful so this is more prominent than in other inferiors). Saturn would also hold the virtue of Mercury, or collect his light or virtue, but, as I said, Saturn is generally much less affected by Mercury than Mercury is by Saturn.

Virtue is NOT the nature of the planet. Virtue is the dignity of the planet. Thus, to give virtue = to give the best you've got in the current situation.

To give the best you've got, you need a friendly connection, i.e., a sextile or a trine aspect. It is hard to offer your friendship via the opposition.

In a nutshell, if the significator of the Querent gives virtue to the significator of the Quesited, it means that both significators are as a rule in a friendly aspect and essentially/accidentally strong to bring the matter to perfection.
The same goes to the translation of light. But apparently it would be annoying to repeat the whole thing over an over again, so it was reduced to 'give/receive virtue'.

Perhaps a translation via Bonatti would be helpful? He likely distinguishes between disposition, virtue and nature - I don't have Ben Dykes' translation. They all seem a bit the same to me, but perhaps there is a subtle nuance I am missing. I don't see disposition, virtue or nature as only being the dignity of a planet, though that would be part of it.

Sue Ward again mentions here:

I think that he (Lilly) uses 'disposition' as he does 'virtue' or 'influence', although it could be that there are variations of aspecting implied in his use of different words. For the time being we can assume that he means the characteristics of the planet. He explains this on page 182,

We understand a Planet to be ill disposed, when Peregrine, Retrograde, Combust, Cadent from the Ascendant or house of the thing demanded , so that he beholds not the house or at least the Lord of the house, in this nature the aspect to the house is better than to the Lord thereof; so that any planet in his Fall or Detriment, may properly be called Destroyer or Obstructor, or Planet impediting.

So, if a planet is in none of these conditions it can be said to be well disposed. He explains further on page 447: ...and see if the more ponderous Planet of the two, that is the receiver of the Disposition..., so it is clear that the receiving planet needs to be the slower, or the aspected planet. The planet which is committing its disposition is that which is faster and therefore doing the aspecting.

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~sueward/a ... eiving.pdf

OK, forget what I said. Here it is:

Virtue = dignity = power, influence
Disposition = virtue

to give virtue/disposition, to commit virtue/disposition [to] = to make an application to (sometimes via the translation/collection of light)

to transfer the virtue/disposition = to translate the power from one planet to another

The nature is different, it does not change. Jupiter will be the Greater Benefic wherever/whatever he is. Every planet, though, "must doe his Office".

Hi guys

Pushing virtue/power is simply when a well dignified planet applies to another, the well dignified planet can push its virtue to that other. e.g Moon in Cancer/Taurus applying to any planet.

Pushing nature (committing disposition is the same thing I believe) is where a light planet is applying to a slower one, and the slower one is the lord of a given dignity in the sign in which the swifter one is. Or to put it more simply, when a slower planet receives a swifter one. e.g Mars in Sagittarius applying to Jupiter (mars pushes his nature to Jupiter)

If Moon were in Cancer and applying to Jupiter, then we could say that the Moon was pushing virtue/power to Jupiter as Moon is in its own domcile and so has that strength which allows it to push its virtue. It is also in the exaltation of Jupiter, so it would also commit its disposition, or push its nature, to Jupiter too.

Disposition is the general state/configuration of the planet:

"The Significator of the thing stolen is the Lord of the Term the Moon is in; when thou hast found the Significator of the Thief, and understandest the nature of his disposition by the significant Planet and his aspects, [...]".

This is why a planet can be ill disposed:

"We understand a Planet to be ill disposed, when Peregrine, Retrograde, Combust, Cadent, from the Ascendant or house of the thing demanded, so that he beholds not the house, or at least the Lord of the house, [...]"

Virtue is the planet's dignity, but it is not limited to domicile/exaltation, an accidental dignity is also a virtue. Virtue is the good stuff the planet has to offer.

So, technically, virtue/dignity = a good disposition. Debility = an ill disposition.

So when a [well disposed] planet gives or commits its [good] disposition to another planet, it gives its power to that other planet, also by the means of translation/collection. In other words, it applies to that other planet. Since it is an application, that other planet is more ponderous/heavier, so it is called the receiver of the disposition, because it receives the aspect. The first planet gives, the second planet receives.

The receiver of the disposition is not (but can be) the same as Dispositor because a planet can dispose of another planet (by sign/exaltation) without an aspect.

The Dispositor rules the other planet's disposition, i.e., it is the ruler of the sign/exaltation the other planet is in.

Seiko wrote:Disposition is the general state/configuration of the planet:

"The Significator of the thing stolen is the Lord of the Term the Moon is in; when thou hast found the Significator of the Thief, and understandest the nature of his disposition by the significant Planet and his aspects, [...]".

Hi Seiko

My understanding is that when it comes to pushing nature (ie committing disposition) we are referring primarily to the essential dignities. The word as you use it above (presumably quoted from Lilly), appears to be more of a looser usage of the idea of disposition being 'arranged' in a particular way, but when it comes to Pushing Nature, or Committing Disposition (capitalised here to indicate that they are particular 'special' terms) we refer primarily to essential dignity I believe.

Virtue is the planet's dignity, but it is not limited to domicile/exaltation, an accidental dignity is also a virtue. Virtue is the good stuff the planet has to offer.

Accidental dignity does offer strength, but do you have any examples of something being referred as pushing virtue/power where the planet is merely accidentally dignified and not essentially dignified?

I've not read of any author which does so. In fact it appears to be exclusively to do with essential dignity which is why I'm puzzled by this idea extending to accidental dignity too.

For example, let's take Abu Mashar's Abbreviation of the Introduction to Astrology:
"A gift of power [ie. pushing power/virtue] is whenever some one of the stars [planets] occupying either its own domicile or other dignities, applies to another one, and exhibits its own power to it"

Clearly we have the idea of the dignities here referring to essential dignities, no mention is made of accidental dignities. The above refers to the pushing of virtue/power.
As for pushing nature/committing disposition, he says this:
"A gift of nature is if some one of the planets occupying the domicile of another applies itself to it; whence its own nature is gifted, from its own host. It comes to be not dissimilarly even in the place of a planet's kingdom [exaltation] and face and the rest of the dignities".

Again, we see reference to the essential dignities only.

Do you have any examples that indicate that this extends beyond the essential dignities and to the accidental ones too? Your quote where disposition is referred to is more of a 'non astrological' kind of disposition - better seen as the planet's 'arrangement' rather than disposition in the sense of one planet disposing another.

Why is everyone looking somewhere else to learn what Lilly said in CA?

Anyway, the chart is "A Lady, if marry the Gentleman desired?". I don't know the page, sorry, but it is the question of the 7th House, obviously.

Jupiter separates from Saturn, they are 9' (minutes) apart. According to Lilly, Jupiter has received Saturn's virtue:

"[...]but the maine occasion, without which in this Figure it could not have been, the application of Jupiter to Sextile of Saturn Lord of the 7th, receiving his vertue which Saturn did render unto him, [...]"

Saturn is in the 10th House, in Taurus, peregrine.

Paul wrote: Your quote where disposition is referred to is more of a 'non astrological' kind of disposition - better seen as the planet's 'arrangement' rather than disposition in the sense of one planet disposing another.

That's the only kind of disposition.

This is funny, considering I'm not a native speaker but anyway:
Disposition (a modern definition) = an inclination, a tendency to act in a certain way.

"indisposed " means 1. slightly sick and 2. unwilling. So "well disposed" would be 1. healthy and 2. willing.

If a person has a disposition towards you, s/he is willing to help you with whatever you need. If a person has an indisposition towards you, s/he does not care about you and your needs, or is unable/unwilling to help you.

Disposition = "I am willing to help you"
Ill disposition/Indisposition = "I am not ready/willing to help you".

A hard-working man who loves his work and is not sick (indisposed) commits to his work and makes things happen. He has a disposition (positive inclination) towards his work. So if you take that hard-working man who is ready to work and bring ("connect") him to the workplace (an aspect), he will perform brilliantly.

If the significator is cadent, combust etc it is ill disposed/indisposed, i.e., unable/unwilling to perform.

So you look in the chart whether that hard-working man is healthy and in good spirits, ready to work, or indisposed/sick or otherwise unable to do his job. Maybe he's feeling a little under the weather (cadent) but a lady doctor will give him some medicine and he will be ready to work (a friendly aspect from Venus).

Greetings all! Thank you so much for such in-depth responses. I'll write more later as I'm writing this at work, but wanted to posit that "giving virtue" does not imply having dignity. Here is what Lilly writs on p. 336 of CA II.

... if the peregrine Planet give virtue to the Moon, or the Moon to him, it is stolen; "

Clearly it extends beyond "dignified" planets. I think he means a contact by aspect. Although, on p. 92 i found that he refers to antiscion as "giving virtue".