I'm not saying you are wrong, I just wondered where you got the idea from. I think that the pattern you spoke of is much older than Bonatti. What you talk of is what the ancient authors term a planet in its "proper face".

Personally, I like the idea that sect plays a role in assigning the triplicity lords as it is so vital to their use.

PFN, would you mind sharing your triplicity system and the rationale behind it?

Seiko wrote:Jupiter, the second most important planet after Saturn, rules Sagittarius, so he gets a piece of the Fiery Triplicity. The Sun is the dominant force in the Fiery Triplicity not only because he is the LIGHT but also he has dignities in two fiery signs.

Mars rules Scorpio, he gets the Watry Triplicity. Jupiter (Pisces) and the Moon (Cancer) are already 'responsible' for the Fiery and the Earthly Triplicity, respectively. So Mars is the only 'king' in the Watry Triplicity.

Venus rules Taurus (the second sign), so she joins the Moon in ruling the Earthly Triplicity.

So, as you can see, it is all perfectly simple. The order of the planets + the order of the signs.

When you justify the triplicities with domiciles and exaltations, you
will get on the traces of Morinus, who found an alternative system
of triplicities.
So you can also argue that Jupiter gets the watry triplicity because
one domicile is in Pisces and the exaltation is in the first watry sign
(Cancer).
Then Mars becomes the compagnon of the Sun in the firy triplicity
because it is ruler of the first firy sign.
Morinus had actually arranged the triplicities of Jupiter and Mars in this
way.
Venus also rules in Libra, so it can be put as a further co-ruler
of the airy triplicity (as Morinus put).

Morinus derived his system of triplicities in the following
way from domiciles and exaltations:

First ruler: the planet which has both a domicile and an exaltation
in that triplicity
Second ruler: the planet which rules the cardinal sign
of the triplicity
Third ruler: the planet which rules the remaining sign
of the triplicity
This gives the following sequence of rulers (from 1st to 3rd):

Fire: Sun, Mars, Jupiter
Air: Saturn, Venus, Mercury
Water: Jupiter, Moon, Mars
Earth: Mercury, Saturn, Venus

With kind regards

Philipp[/u]

felix wrote: This gives the following sequence of rulers (from 1st to 3rd):

Fire: Sun, Mars, Jupiter
Air: Saturn, Venus, Mercury
Water: Jupiter, Moon, Mars
Earth: Mercury, Saturn, Venus

In that triplicity systems based on domiciles and exaltations,
Saturn has the highest rank in air, but Mars has the higher
rank in the firy triplicity (wich matches with his nature)
and not in the watry triplicity.

With kind regards

Felix

That is interesting. But using to my weird logic, I kind of 'arrive' at the commonly used Triplicities. I don't lock on domicile & exaltation, I used them to emphasize that Saturn is dignified in two aery signs, so he definitely belongs there.

But who knows. Maybe, as I said, people decided that the Sun and Mars cannot coexist as the rulers of the same element because a trine aspect is supposed to bring harmony so they 'connected' the Sun to Jupiter.

That's probably it. Trine is the aspect of friendship so the ancients were 'compelled' to put a friendly planet or a self-exaltation at the end of each trine.

PS Nah, then the Earthly Triplicity would fail my little friendship theory because the Moon detriments in Capricorn. So I'm back on my crazy the order of the planets theory. Whatever. Life is beautiful. Peace.

PFN, would you mind sharing your triplicity system and the rationale behind it?

I would not mind at all Konrad.

The system is quite simple. I do not use participants, because I find the distinction between night / day ruler to be quite useful and that too much lords, too much elements = less simplicity.

Fire = Sun by day, Jupiter by night
Air = Saturn by day, Mercury by night
Water = Venus by day, Moon by night
Earth = Mercury by day, Mars by night

The rationale is heavily emphasized on authority of the stars, symmetry and respects to a certain extent the sect theory given by Ptolemy.

So, the Sun gets fire by day, nothing new here. I do understand why the Moon was assigned to the earth triplicity, but I find that She manifests her true complementary function to the Sun in the water triplicity. She is queen of the night, the generational principle, and although she can "fertilize" the earth with her humidity, it is water itself that mostly agrees with her, and only there can she truly marry the Sun; so she has an obligation / mission to meet there. Then, I assign the night triplicity of water to her, and keep the intrinsinc duality present in the Cancer / Leo domiciles.

Mercury is a special case. He is the only one that gets two elements to rule. But Mercury can do that because he belongs, according to the ancients, to both sects, and his position in the ascendant through the Joys dignity clearly depicts that. I believe that Mercury's nature agrees with Saturn (both are cold and dry essentialy) and we know that Aquarius is a strong sign for Mercury. My experience says that not only Aquarius is, but Capricorn is as well. Mercury rules by exaltation and rulership a feminine sign, Virgo. But It can be malefic if too extreme. So, the earth triplicity by day heats Mercury a little, making him more able to perform in a positive manner, while the air element and it's heat impedes Mercury to become too cold in a night chart. I know Mercury can do well in Scorpio in areas such as biology, in Cancer and Pisces for artistic endeavours and in Sagitarius for philosophy or even math, but those elements (fire and water) do not conform with his nature too well, fire is too torrid for him, and water is too mellow. Finally, Mercury itself is dual in it's nature, and one of the myths tied to him (of Janus) speaks of a God that looks behind and ahead (past and future). Janus festival was around the time that the Sun crossed Gemini, if I'm not incorrect.

Venus in the Water by day I can say that agrees with her. She is heated by day and Dorotheus uses this same position for her. We are not sure if Venus is essentially hot or cold, but I'd say that judging by her sect (night one) she leans more to the cold side essentialy. Also, just like Jupiter is the benefic that follows the King, Venus is the benefic of choice to follow the Queen.

Finally, Mars, gets earth triplicity by night. I know, Mars does not bode well in Taurus. But is terrific in Capricorn and Virgo. In Virgo, it would have participant triplicity by Dorotheus, and would represent things such as needles. Few things are more precise a tool than a needle. In an earth sign, Mars represents the ideal focus of a manly energy, he's the engineer breaking through the soil, the worker, the haverster. In a night chart, Mars is tempered, in an earth sign, he is cooled and precise, contained in it's expression.

Well, when I designed this I'm sure I thought other things, but that's what I can remember now. I know my explanation is not very technical, but I found it to be a really beautiful triplicity system. Does it work? you could ask myself... well, I'm only one astrologer. I can stand for Mercury in any earth sign, and for Mars in Virgo and Capricorn at least. But I know I'm proposing something that goes against statements of some of the highest authorities in the field of astrology. Still, I take comfort knowing that guys like Morin did it before and can still gather some respect

Also, I could just create a story of a secret egyptian book as well, that contained the secret of life right next to this triplicity system written by Hermes himself, and that I'd found it on a trip to a pyramid, but oh well, that's not my thing. All I can say is that the system above seems somewhat reasonable to me.

Seiko wrote:That is interesting. But using to my weird logic, I kind of 'arrive' at the commonly used Triplicities. I don't lock on domicile & exaltation, I used them to emphasize that Saturn is dignified in two aery signs, so he definitely belongs there.

But who knows. Maybe, as I said, people decided that the Sun and Mars cannot coexist as the rulers of the same element because a trine aspect is supposed to bring harmony so they 'connected' the Sun to Jupiter.

That's probably it. Trine is the aspect of friendship so the ancients were 'compelled' to put a friendly planet or a self-exaltation at the end of each trine.

PS Nah, then the Earthly Triplicity would fail my little friendship theory because the Moon detriments in Capricorn. So I'm back on my crazy the order of the planets theory. Whatever. Life is beautiful. Peace.

Well the sect theory I spoke of explains why Mars cannot rule in the fiery triplicity: Mars is a nocturnal planet while the fiery triplicity is dirunal. You'll notice also that none of the nocturnal planets rule the air triplicity and none of the dirunal planets rule either of the nocturnal triplicities. It then falls to the domicile and exaltation lords to take up the posts with the emphasis given to the fixed signs which is why the Earth and Water triplicities have slightly different orders (Moon exalted lady of Taurus, Mars domicile lord of Scorpio). In this system the most dirunal of the three planets is given the day.

PFN wrote:

PFN, would you mind sharing your triplicity system and the rationale behind it?

I would not mind at all Konrad.

The system is quite simple. I do not use participants, because I find the distinction between night / day ruler to be quite useful and that too much lords, too much elements = less simplicity.

Fire = Sun by day, Jupiter by night
Air = Saturn by day, Mercury by night
Water = Venus by day, Moon by night
Earth = Mercury by day, Mars by night

The rationale is heavily emphasized on authority of the stars, symmetry and respects to a certain extent the sect theory given by Ptolemy.

So, the Sun gets fire by day, nothing new here. I do understand why the Moon was assigned to the earth triplicity, but I find that She manifests her true complementary function to the Sun in the water triplicity. She is queen of the night, the generational principle, and although she can "fertilize" the earth with her humidity, it is water itself that mostly agrees with her, and only there can she truly marry the Sun; so she has an obligation / mission to meet there. Then, I assign the night triplicity of water to her, and keep the intrinsinc duality present in the Cancer / Leo domiciles.

Mercury is a special case. He is the only one that gets two elements to rule. But Mercury can do that because he belongs, according to the ancients, to both sects, and his position in the ascendant through the Joys dignity clearly depicts that. I believe that Mercury's nature agrees with Saturn (both are cold and dry essentialy) and we know that Aquarius is a strong sign for Mercury. My experience says that not only Aquarius is, but Capricorn is as well. Mercury rules by exaltation and rulership a feminine sign, Virgo. But It can be malefic if too extreme. So, the earth triplicity by day heats Mercury a little, making him more able to perform in a positive manner, while the air element and it's heat impedes Mercury to become too cold in a night chart. I know Mercury can do well in Scorpio in areas such as biology, in Cancer and Pisces for artistic endeavours and in Sagitarius for philosophy or even math, but those elements (fire and water) do not conform with his nature too well, fire is too torrid for him, and water is too mellow. Finally, Mercury itself is dual in it's nature, and one of the myths tied to him (of Janus) speaks of a God that looks behind and ahead (past and future). Janus festival was around the time that the Sun crossed Gemini, if I'm not incorrect.

Venus in the Water by day I can say that agrees with her. She is heated by day and Dorotheus uses this same position for her. We are not sure if Venus is essentially hot or cold, but I'd say that judging by her sect (night one) she leans more to the cold side essentialy. Also, just like Jupiter is the benefic that follows the King, Venus is the benefic of choice to follow the Queen.

Finally, Mars, gets earth triplicity by night. I know, Mars does not bode well in Taurus. But is terrific in Capricorn and Virgo. In Virgo, it would have participant triplicity by Dorotheus, and would represent things such as needles. Few things are more precise a tool than a needle. In an earth sign, Mars represents the ideal focus of a manly energy, he's the engineer breaking through the soil, the worker, the haverster. In a night chart, Mars is tempered, in an earth sign, he is cooled and precise, contained in it's expression.

Well, when I designed this I'm sure I thought other things, but that's what I can remember now. I know my explanation is not very technical, but I found it to be a really beautiful triplicity system. Does it work? you could ask myself... well, I'm only one astrologer. I can stand for Mercury in any earth sign, and for Mars in Virgo and Capricorn at least. But I know I'm proposing something that goes against statements of some of the highest authorities in the field of astrology. Still, I take comfort knowing that guys like Morin did it before and can still gather some respect

Also, I could just create a story of a secret egyptian book as well, that contained the secret of life right next to this triplicity system written by Hermes himself, and that I'd found it on a trip to a pyramid, but oh well, that's not my thing. All I can say is that the system above seems somewhat reasonable to me.

Thanks for sharing. You are correct, it is quite an elegant theory. Do you use it when judging the natives support or eminence via the sect light and that sort of technique?

Konrad wrote:Thanks for sharing. You are correct, it is quite an elegant theory. Do you use it when judging the natives support or eminence via the sect light and that sort of technique?

Yes, I do. Any technique laid out by the ancients that relies on triplicity, I apply this scheme so that I can grasp it's validity.

PFN wrote:

Konrad wrote:Thanks for sharing. You are correct, it is quite an elegant theory. Do you use it when judging the natives support or eminence via the sect light and that sort of technique?

Yes, I do. Any technique laid out by the ancients that relies on triplicity, I apply this scheme so that I can grasp it's validity.

And how valid is it?

So far, mixed results. But I tried it on a very limited number of charts, because I decided to apply this new scheme very recently. Before, I was sticking to the traditional one (Dorotheus) with mixed results as well (some charts it would give expected answers, others, not so much).

If I'm ever confident that this scheme I propose holds any water, I could come back here to this thread with examples. But I feel that it would be convincing only if I could demonstrate validity AND it stood better than what is traditionally proposed.

PFN wrote:So far, mixed results. But I tried it on a very limited number of charts, because I decided to apply this new scheme very recently. Before, I was sticking to the traditional one (Dorotheus) with mixed results as well (some charts it would give expected answers, others, not so much).

If I'm ever confident that this scheme I propose holds any water, I could come back here to this thread with examples. But I feel that it would be convincing only if I could demonstrate validity AND it stood better than what is traditionally proposed.

Of course and obviously it is very rare that one factor alone will tell the story in an aspect of the nativity, so isolating it will be very difficult. For what it's worth, I will note them down and keep an eye on the charts I come across.

One of the reasons I am so interested is that I'm not entirely convinced by the use of the sect light and its triplicity lords as indicators from support and eminence. I always just thought that it was due to us not fully understanding the impications of the technique. Maybe you are correct to question the actual triplicity lords? I recently came across a Russian gentleman who thought that the bounds were dependant on latitude but so far, he was unable to solve the puzzle. My experiences with directing through the bounds tell me that not everything is as it should be with that technique. Perhaps he is also correct to question the rulerships rather than the method?

Konrad wrote:One of the reasons I am so interested is that I'm not entirely convinced by the use of the sect light and its triplicity lords as indicators from support and eminence. I always just thought that it was due to us not fully understanding the impications of the technique. Maybe you are correct to question the actual triplicity lords? I recently came across a Russian gentleman who thought that the bounds were dependant on latitude but so far, he was unable to solve the puzzle. My experiences with directing through the bounds tell me that not everything is as it should be with that technique. Perhaps he is also correct to question the rulerships rather than the method?

If you ever see something in this triplicity system I propose, I'd be glad if you share it

About questioning the dignities for bounds, I've always felt unconfortable with the bounds because we do not know much about their foundation. It is the most mysterious dignity system of all (even more than exaltation). So, I find it quite a challenge to meedle with it. The only thing I can not avoid thinking, when using bounds, is that a bound of Venus can not be good for Mars and a bound of Mars can not be good to Venus (to keep coherence with domicile/exaltation implicit rules) and so on to other wandering stars... but I'm not sure of this, bacause bounds are assymetrical (all other dignities, domicile, triplicity, face, monomoira and even exaltation have some sort of symmetry, but with bounds there is little to evidentiate a pattern).