Lunlumo wrote:

I personally as a rule do not really like relocations - e.g. the US chart 1776 should be related to Philadelphia, the 1789 chart that you discussed here (thank you, by the way) should be referred to N.Y. German matters, however, have always been complicated. When the Federal Republic was founded Bonn's status was the one of a "Regierungssitz - "seat of the government". In other words it was not given the title of a capital (that would have been "Hauptstadt"). With respect to Berlin's complex situation (then still under allied control etc.) one avoided calling it "Hauptstadt". But actually it was the capital - at least in a symbolical way. So I think one does not go wrong in referring the chart to Berlin.

It seems your right. In the sense Bonn was always seen as a provisional capital until re-unification could be achieved. I got this from the wikipedia entry on Bonn:

Following World War II, Bonn was in the British zone of occupation, and in 1949 became the provisional capital of West Germany. The choice of Bonn was made mainly due to the advocacy of West Germany's first chancellor, Konrad Adenauer, a former Cologne Mayor and a native of that area. This was despite the fact that Frankfurt already had most of the required facilities and using Bonn was estimated to be 95 million DM more expensive than using Frankfurt. It was thought, however, that locating the capital in a major city like Frankfurt or Hamburg would imply a permanent capital.

In their heart Germans clearly still regarded Berlin as their capital. However, one cannot avoid the legalistic, pedantic point that at the creation of the FRG Bonn was the seat of government and formally Berlin wasn't even in the territory of the FRG at that time.

The position of Berlin was rather unique:

Again from Wikipedia on West Berlin:

According to the legal theory followed by the Western Allies, the occupation of most of Germany ended in 1949 with the declaration of the Federal Republic of Germany (23 May 1949) and the German Democratic Republic (7 October 1949). However, because the occupation of Berlin could only be ended by a quadripartite agreement, Berlin remained an occupied territory under the formal sovereignty of the allies. Hence, the Grundgesetz (the constitution of the Federal Republic) was not applicable to West Berlin. In addition, West German federal law did not apply to West Berlin, but the House of Representatives of Berlin (German: Abgeordnetenhaus von Berlin; the West Berlin legislature; the reunited Berlin's legislature bears the same name) used to vote in every new federal law without debate to maintain legal status with the pre-1990 Federal Republic of Germany.

The distinction between a seat of government and a capital is interesting. A good example is the Netherlands where the Hague is the seat of government but Amsterdam is the capital.

Lunlumo wrote:

With respect to Berlin's complex situation (then still under allied control etc.) one avoided calling it "Hauptstadt". But actually it was the capital - at least in a symbolical way. So I think one does not go wrong in referring the chart to Berlin.

It seems current events give us all an excellent opportunity to test this theory out in praxis. If the Bonn based chart is valid one would expect the transit of Uranus square the ASC in late March/April 2012 to have a very marked effect. The last time Uranus aspected an angle (conj or hard aspect) in the Bonn based chart was in October 1990 at the time of reunification. I think its noteable that Uranus crossed the ASC in the Bonn chart exactly at the time of reunification. Coincidence? Uranus previously squared the ASC of the Bonn chart in July/August 1970. This coincided with Chancellor Willy Brandt signing the Treaty of Moscow. This was the first of several agreements recognizing the legal existence of the German Democratic Republic and the post-war border of the two German states along the The Oder-Neisse line with Poland. This treaty initiated the policy of so called 'Neue Ostpolitik' in Germany coinciding with the atmosphere of detente.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Moscow_(1970)

Alternatively, will major events around transits of 9-10 cardinal be proof of the validity of the 1949 chart (located for Berlin) , the 1871 chart or both?

Mark

Thanks Mark,
I appreciate your thorough research - and I think we'll soon find out about the "true" chart.
As to the chart of the "Reich": in 1945 Churchill, Truman and Stalin in Potsdam agreed on this: the Reich was still a legal reality. For a number of reasons (that cannot be pointed out in detail here) one did not want to create a total vacuum (Stalin: "Die Hitler kommen und gehen, das deutsche Volk bleibt bestehen." = "The Hitlers come and go - the German people will survive.") The Bundesverfassungsgericht - the German "Supreme Court" has twice confirmed (that was in the 70s) that the state created in 1871 has never ceased to exist.
However, I agree: the chart that should get our major attention is the 1949 chart.
LL

Lunlumo wrote:

The Bundesverfassungsgericht - the German "Supreme Court" has twice confirmed (that was in the 70s) that the state created in 1871 has never ceased to exist.

Thanks I wasn't aware of this. Although I am sure you will agree that in itself this doesn't invalidate later charts. We accept later national charts for many countries where they have previously existed as a nation state. For example Italy.

However, I agree: the chart that should get our major attention is the 1949 chart.

Indeed. The eyes of the world are (or should be) on Germany.

Mark

Vernal Ingress 2012, Berlin

Seeing this chart from a realistic point of view - the least thing that can be said is that Germany will tend to a change of its financial policies. MER/UR - you'll hardly find any new developments that concern currencies without this aspect. The impact will be felt throughout Europe.

MOO/NE at/around 2 degrees Pisces - according to the D?bereiner Munich School of Rhythm this degree has a SAt/NE-quality - which has been proved again and again: crisis and possible collapse.
MOO/NE is conj AC when referred to Madrid (precise), but the constellation will exert its effect also on London.
LL

MOO/NE at/around 2 degrees Pisces - according to the D?bereiner Munich School of Rhythm this degree has a SAt/NE-quality - which has been proved again and again: crisis and possible collapse.

Confirmed by the fact that Moon/Neptune conjunct Saturn (by antiscion). Both the antiscion and the 12th house point to something hidden/behind the scenes, so I wonder if we will even get to know everything about this crisis/collapse (at least initially - until it's not possible to hide it any more).