Relationships and obstacles

I can't tell you how this chart will work out. It is one of those charts that provides an answer, but where there is a problem, an element of risk, and the outfall may depend on the right line of action, maybe a therapeutic process. The chart is posted as an example of how the horary astrologer may, through passing judgement, also get involved in the role as the therapeut.

Will there be a relationship?
A woman calls with a simple question. "Please describe my future in terms of relationships?" 25 Cancer is on the Ascendant. The Moon is Lady of the 1st house and needs 6 degrees to complete her sextile to Saturn, Lord of the 7th. Saturn is hanging slightly below the cusp of the 5th of lovers and affairs (part time relationships; the ones that have on and off buttons). It is a little out of orb, but the 4th house is 42 degrees wide and Saturn and the cusp of the 5th are in the same sign, so I'll accept it. The question and it?s prospects seems plausible. I accept it.

The consultation starts with examining the application of Moon to Saturn. There is something up ahead here described in 6 time units, could it be weeks or months? "Well," says the client, "I am due to meet this guy in 6 days time. We have been communicating on the internet." My mind starts working fast. Risk. Internet dating can be hazardous. The Moon is applying to Saturn through signs of long ascension and both planets are located below the horizon. These sextiles do more that others have the potential of converting to a square. With the sextile through signs of long ascension there is intention and initiative, but with the tendency to go hasty to work, making mistakes and learning as they go along. Learning the hard way. The Moon and Saturn are planetary opposites, probably more than other examples, ie. Mars and Venus, because the Moon and Saturn are on the opposite side of the Ptolemaic scale and the two planets are quite diverse in terms of emotional needs.

The querent admits an eating disorder and says: ?I have a problem with my self-esteem and feel insecure in relationships with men.? This hits the nail on the head. The Moon would have a need for emotional security, and in any relationship with Saturn may have difficulty in getting hold of the nourishment or feedback from the environment required. A problem with food is a classical overcompensation for dealing with emotional pit-holes. Working on an issue that may lie latent on a subconscious level, maybe even from a prenatal stage, there is a problem of personal self-degrading and certainly the need of some emotional supporting from someone in the environment to fill the hole, solve the problem and cross the bridge, as it were. Well, the woman should meet and will meet with the guy in 6 days time. Maybe if an issue or habitual mistake can be resolved and quality put in it?s place then matters will look even brighter in 6 weeks or 6 months time. Things given time. Time moves in circles. Seeds that are sown in the inner time circles tend to give yields when expanded to larger time units.

The question is asked in the hour of Mercury. With Cancer on the ascendant, there is a disagreement between the lord of the hour and the radical ascendant (Mercury corrupts the Moon) and there is some worry and corruption to be resolved. Although both the Moon and Saturn are both below the horizon, I am still feeling this is not a lost cause. With the sextile through long ascension there is a tendency to go out too fast and bold, and get things wrong. But it doesn?t have to go that way. With convertible aspects there are the benefits of guidance and an element of conduct and choice. Besides, the Moon is on the cusp of the 2nd house and moving towrds the future. Saturn is dignified by exaltation and face, and the person she is due to date has shown quality and understanding. Mars, Lord of the 11th house, is in the 1st.. The 11th house is the house of friendship and will always see you through in both business, love and war ? so there is protection, preferment and relief for the querent. Ther is something to be gained and matters are heading the right direction. If the initial approach is not too tightly wound, strangled by expectation, or judging by first appearances, history and state of affairs, but take the time to look for the inner qualities and not press too hard; with Saturn things always need time to mature; that would be my recipe to meet with the relationship and grow through personal obstacles at the same time. It?s like looking for buried treasure. It could just work out.

Andrew,

It's hard to say whether there will be a date in whatever 6 time unit (days, weeks or months). Judging the chart the prospects do not look like very promising. Whether there will be a date (most probably, she was asking of a relationship) depends mainly on the condition of her sig - the Moon and her reception with the quesited - the lord of the 7th Saturn. Here the Moon is fixed in the middle of Leo which tends to leave the things as they are.
If you need changes such position of the Moon is very uncooperative. Besides, if we refer to Morin he says that the ability of a peregrine planet to work depends on the condition of its dispositor (which he sometimes uses as a second significator) - here the Sun. The Sun has just entered Libra, the sign of his fall and is pretty far from the angle 'insulated' by the cusp of the sign.

The Moon perfects that sextile out of the sign of Saturn's detriment which looks like a 'no' testimony. It's hard to say how will work out that sextile through the signs of long ascension should there be a relationship.
In football charts it does not make any difference whether an aspect is cast trough signs of long or short ascension.

I wonder whether the lord of hour (position in house, sign, alingment with radical ASC, receptions with sigs, etc.) may tell us something about the problems underlying the issue. Here Mercury is strong in its own house but in fall of Venus in Virgo (digestion) undermining her womanhood.

In my opinion, the dignified Saturn more shows the artist than the guy who she is going to date. Your advice may give an enhancement to her woomanhood (Saturn in the sign of Venus - woomanhood).

Regards
Janis

Janis, I have to disagree with you on this one but I do appreciate you posting your thoughts and remarks.

It's hard to say whether there will be a date in whatever 6 time unit (days, weeks or months).

The question was regarding the likelihood of a future relationship. I suggested something in 6 weeks or 6 months. She stated that she had a date and a first meeting scheduled in 6 days time. I do not see this event being postponed.

Here the Moon is fixed in the middle of Leo which tends to leave the things as they are. If you need changes such position of the Moon is very uncooperative. Besides, if we refer to Morin he says that the ability of a peregrine planet to work depends on the condition of its dispositor (which he sometimes uses as a second significator) - here the Sun. The Sun has just entered Libra, the sign of his fall and is pretty far from the angle 'insulated' by the cusp of the sign.

From the postion of the Moon by sign I believe we are looking for some pride and self-esteem on part of the querent; some confidence, generousity, playfulness and warmth of heart. The Sun in Libra, as the dispositor of the Moon, does show the question refers to relationships - besides there is a mixed reception between the Moon and the Sun, the Sun being in her face, which I do think gives strength to making appearances. The Moon, significator of the querent, translates Venus, Lady of the 5th, to Saturn, Lord of the 7th. Venus is the dispositor of Saturn, but there is great fortitude in this quarter of the chart in Libra, since both Venus and Saturn count high on essential dignities. Regarding the detriment of the Sun, the Hindus say that this is abated by a planet exalted and present in the same sign. It is a condition of being a honored guest, enjoying the protestion and resources of the owner and host of the castle.

An aspect is cast through signs of long or short ascension doesn't make any difference in football? What do you mean? I think they do. Honestly, I think we will be battling with the problem of football matches for some time to come, as we certainly are not on the top of this one yet. But aspects cast through signs of long and short ascension are definately important, and as I say; they are convertables. The basic aspect is the starting point. The converted meaning shows which way the effect may turn if addressed in the right manner (i.e. a square converted to a sextile or a trine) or if not addressed in the right manner (i.e. a sextile or a trine converted to a square). The point you mention about the Moon being in the detriment of Saturn I do think is interesting. It does represent an imbalance or an unequal trade, yet Saturn is dignified and the quesitive has everything to offer.

In my opinion, the dignified Saturn more shows the artist than the guy who she is going to date. Your advice may give an enhancement to her womanhood (Saturn in the sign of Venus - womanhood).

No, I am going to leave that to the other guy. But I do believe her odds of solving the riddle and getting things right are higher if she approaches the matter in the right manner and gets hold of the resources and clues astrology has to offer. The matter is not likely to be settled in one night, and I encourage to querent to move slowly forward and find comfort in the situation rather than push it to one side.

Andrew, my intention was not to challenge your judgment. My apologies if I made such appearance.

I have observed that a fixed and waxing Moon is pretty uncooperative if we wish to change things (no matter what). The Moon's ability to act depends on how much she has light. She has little and she is going to lose that little she has. In addition, sextile is the weakest of all ptolomaic aspects. I have made countless horaries 'Will I win if I back ...', and from all aspects sextiles appear to be most unreliable (squares seem to be working better, opposition is a flat 'no' unless perfected by dignified planets and out of angular houses). This is my experience.

I wish the lady the best in solving her partnership problems and would not like to jeopordize her partnership prospects.
Currently, I am working on the hiearchy of testimonies (which one is going to happen), for that purpose my approach is more like as of a fortune teller rather than an advisor. Therefore it can appear that I am a little bit reckless in my judgements.

As regards whether we can spot any difference between aspects cast through signs of long or short ascension in football charts, we would discuss it in section 'Sports and Speculation'. I allow that I might be wrong, but I have not spotted any reliable difference to make judgment on that alone. Even the kind of aspect (oppostion, trine, square or conjunction) seems not to matter. Sextile seems to be relatively weak.

It's not the type of the aspect, it's the significators that matter. An opposition with a reception is better than a trine with, say, Mars retrograde.

Janis wrote:Andrew, my intention was not to challenge your judgment. My apologies if I made such appearance.

Your contribution and thoughts are always appreciated.

More a question than anything.

But in this chart the Moon separates from Venus, which is triplicity ruler of Lord 7. Just wondering if the querent has recently broken up with another man roughly one unit of time ago (a month etc)?

Paul wrote:But in this chart the Moon separates from Venus, which is triplicity ruler of Lord 7. Just wondering if the querent has recently broken up with another man roughly one unit of time ago (a month etc)?

According to system of triplicity rulership you use, I suppose.. I would generally use a system where the triplicity of Earth was ruled by Venus by day, yet the Moon by night. However, your thoughts are still observant in view of the universal significations of the planet Venus.

The pre-occasion to the question could be expressed and manifest on several levels. In a larger time unit there could have been a relationship, but of a temporary kind - or matters would not be where they are today. The Moon's previous aspect to Venus could also refer to the present aquaintance, in terms of the outlook up to this point looking quite promising. They have not met yet, but from having found a common ground and liking on the internet they have agreed to meet as an intermediate step and see whether the friendship can be lifted to the next level.

I see security as a key issue to success in the totality of matters at hand here, and I do not think there should be too much push or expectancy. Through our relationships I think we proabably all are looking for a sense of wholeness and to unite with something that lies within ourselves.

Sorry for some reason I thought this was a day chart!
I only glanced quickly at it and I'm not familiar with that chart style. Think I thought the POF was actually the sun :S

The question was regarding the likelihood of a future relationship. I suggested something in 6 weeks or 6 months. She stated that she had a date and a first meeting scheduled in 6 days time. I do not see this event being postponed.

Moon translating light of the 5th ruler to the 7th and 5th ruler applying to the 7th is probably primarily indicating the future date, which could turn into a serious interest on her part since she is the swifter of the two, but I agree with others that a sextile without reception tends to be pretty weak. Although, like you said, signs of long ascension can be viewed as a square and squares can pack a punch (as a natal Cancer rising with Moon-Saturn square I don't recommend that though!). Saturn not receiving Moon would be especially problematic, considering Saturn can be unimpressed/aloof/disinterested in romance charts and this is a night chart where he is more "cold." Capricorn DSC and Saturn in Libra in the 4th is going to describe someone hardworking, serious, wise (perhaps older), uses few words, may think very highly of himself (exaltation) and probably has a good job/social status. So this could describe him. Maybe he is focused on work too much (a workaholic) as Saturn is in the 10th from the 7th.

We had a recent test chart that involved a woman's husband (Moon in Leo) purchasing tickets to Europe for his wife (Saturn in Libra) and the wife was not keen on going while the husband was up for the fun and was a bit self-centered about the trip. This could be used slightly in other charts where we consider how Saturn said she felt and perceived the Moon.

As in the test chart on the trip to Europe, there is a mutual "like" in a sextile, but the relationship is strained because Moon approaches from Saturn's detriment and Moon is peregrine. Saturn is the one who is dignified and should be receiving Moon as she commits her disposition onto him, but he doesn't. I would agree that the Moon may have self-esteem issues or is awkward around relationships because she sees things more from her perspective than someone else's (I find this more likely since, like in the test chart, she also approaches from her own house). Mars in the 1st may be too forceful and Moon is also in a masculine sign. I would suggest to her to not be too overbearing nor peppy around her date and to focus not on herself but him as well, such as not talking about herself too much and getting to know him (pay attention to cues because he is not likely to say what he is thinking or feeling). She is probably an expressive person whereas Saturn is reserved.

Mars as the 11th ruler in the 1st square Jupiter in the 11th and PoF in Gemini (not the most romantic indicator) in the 11th may point to this turning into a friendship or platonic relationship, perhaps mostly because of her own behavior, which is likely to be impatient, fickle yet also passionate and energetic (probably too much so). Uranus is also angular trine Mars in the 1st house, so she may be a bit too special for a Saturn guy (they are typically conservative and boring). But opposites can attract... they just tend to annoy each other a lot of the time.

with Saturn things always need time to mature; that would be my recipe to meet with the relationship and grow through personal obstacles at the same time. It?s like looking for buried treasure. It could just work out.

Saturn ruling the 7th can show late bloomers or people with few relationships. Luckily the sextile doesn't seem to indicate a negative attitude towards relationships, which can occur with Saturn ruling the 7th as well (that relationships are too difficult, cause pain, loneliness and depression, etc.). Modern astrology grants Saturn a lot of good by saying he comes with time, he grants wisdom, etc. but I must say that is not always the case, unfortunately. Saturn is often simply harder.

It's not the type of the aspect, it's the significators that matter. An opposition with a reception is better than a trine with, say, Mars retrograde.

I agree for the most part. And here we are dealing with Saturn, the most difficult type of significator, who is dignified and direct, but also out of sect and there is no reception.

Hello,

I'd like to comment firstly that I've learnt a lot from all of your interpretations here and I don't want to dispute them. I would just like to contribute my own also, just because I found this thread very interesting.

Here is my interpretation:

Moon goes to Saturn via sextile which indicates positive results though with some degree of effort. I agree that the lack of reception is problematic. Moon being angular though is likely to make things happen more than the interpretation that was stated about it being fixed in Leo.

Another positive indicator is that co-sig for the querent Venus applies by conjunction to Saturn, both in high essential dignity, since this is in the sign of marriage I would say that the querent is very keen on partnership, or finding that someone special.


The only negative point, is that Venus and Saturn are cadent in the 3rd house (equal houses). It's interesting that this relationship has begun on the internet as an impersonal form of communication. (3rd house).

However, cadence is not an obstacle since the signs are extremely positive, with both Venus and Moon applying to Saturn. 6 months or six years may be more like an answer here simply because of the cadent signifiers. Though of course, Moon is Angular.