Hi all

A question,
Any idea what gate the 2nd sign is, and the 8th? Which one is the way in, which one the way out of Hades?

Hermes wrote:Hi all

A question,
Any idea what gate the 2nd sign is, and the 8th? Which one is the way in, which one the way out of Hades?

It depends.
For this one 2 is in and 8th is out.
and for this it is the other way round.

PD

Funny , but that's not the answer

Mithra6 wrote:

I have a question:

What do I do with a 10th house cusp and MC in a different house in whole signs? I do career delineation pretty much according to Bonatti which doesn't depend on the 10th, but with quadrants I still like to consider it in practice. In whole signs when the MC is in a different house I get confused.

Ah back to some practical astrology at last! I think that was probably more what the original poster was looking for.

GR wrote:

I'd treat it as both have signification with profession, i.e. if in the 11th, alliances play a significant role in the native's profession or acquisition of offices, meaning he is well connected.

If you want a "primary" one, I'd go with the 10th sign, as it has direct connection to action by being the 10th from the rising sign. But as you already know, there are other considerations that go before the examination of the 10th house in the matter of delineation of profession.

I can see why you are suggesting that but it doesn't match my experience in lots of charts I have examined. I have probably, seen as many, if not more, charts where the MC was more indicative than the 10th house WS. However, its a complex area and difficult to reduce down so simply as you suggest. For example hellenistic authors like Paul of Alexandria discuss the 2nd and 6th house as relevant to career matters as these houses trine the WS 10th. The 2nd house ruler shows our skills or talents we have and what area we may incline to in earning money. In this case the resources are the native themself. I also think the Lot of fortune is very indicate of career too.

In weighing up the 10th WS ruler vs MC I would look to the placement of their dispositors by essential and accidental dignity. Other factors would need to be checked such as planets in the 10th WS, aspects to the MC etc. The same approach can be used in charts where the IC falls outside the 4th house WS. In my own chart the MC falls in the 9th WS in Capricorn so there is not any scope comparing differing significators. I do have an IC outside the 4th WS house. Both significators seem to be indicative of different aspects of my family background.

The method of delineating the MC depending on what WS house it falls in can be revealing. Then again you need to keep in mind how latitude/location is a factor in the placement of the MC in a chart with an increasing number of 12th house MC charts as you go into more northern latitudes. Hence if you were an astrologer in say northern Russia/Norway or Canada/Alaska you would be delineating an awful lot of 12th house lives/careers. Still considering all those months without Sunshine its maybe quite accurate.

I think Curtis made a good point at the beginning of the thread where he suggested Valens sometimes preferred the MC over the WS 10th house.

...we see in Valens that he sometimes took the MC to give signs for praxis in the same way the 10th topical division was used (suggesting that one was to use the one that gave the greater testimonies). Each chart may be different then if this is the case.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Yes, it is more complicated than I mentioned, but it was a simple question that got a simple answer. And yes, there are other places involved in the delineation of profession, namely the 6th and 2nd. But even before all this, there's the matter of what planets are in the Sun's sign, what angular planets are there(if any), and what Mercury, Mars, and Venus are doing in the chart before we get to horsing around with the testimonies of the particular places relevant to professions, masteries, & offices.

Looking at whether the domicile & exalted lords of the 10th & the place where the MC falls can see their respective signs might be a good rough & ready way to see which will be more immediately indicative, but I would assert that they are both going to give some sort of testimony with regard to profession, even if it isn't much.

GR wrote:

I would assert that they are both going to give some sort of testimony with regard to profession

I never suggested otherwise. I was responding to the question of Mithra6 by offering a practical method of differentiating between the two.

GR wrote:

But even before all this, there's the matter of what planets are in the Sun's sign, what angular planets are there(if any), and what Mercury, Mars, and Venus are doing in the chart before we get to horsing around with the testimonies of the particular places relevant to professions, masteries, & offices.

Angular planets definitely. However, I haven't found Ptolemy's use of Mercury, Mars and Venus that practical. However, perhaps you weren't referring to that. I am not familiar with looking at planets in the Sun's sign. Which source is that from?

Mark

Mark wrote: Angular planets definitely. However, I haven't found Ptolemy's use of Mercury, Mars and Venus that practical. However, perhaps you weren't referring to that. I am not familiar with looking at planets in the Sun's sign. Which source is that from?

Mark

The Mercury, Mars and Venus stuff I think can be useful, but not definitive by itself, at least as I've seen it.

The Sun's sign stuff is in Ptolemy, and Paulus. IIRC Paulus wants a planet 12-20 degrees from the Sun, basically, a planet that has either heliacally risen or set. I'm sure some would want it to be astronomically precise.

(Greenbaum, D. G., Ross, M. (2010). 'The Role of Egypt in the Development of the Horoscope', in Barres, L., Coppens, F., Smolarikova, K., Egypt in Transition: Social and Religious Development of Egypt in the First Millennium BCE (Prague: Czech Institute of Egyptology, Faculty of Arts, Charles University in Prague, 146-182.) Anyone who has come across Dorian Greenbaum's work will know how excellent it is. Micah Ross has also written recently on early demotic (late Egyptian) horoscopes. Because of the obscurity of the publication I still haven't managed to get this article but I am sure it would be most rewarding for anyone that does.

The book mentioned above should be still available here:
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ ... tion/Oxbow

Paul Paral

PaulParal, thanks for the link. At 80 pounds plus shipping, probably Interlibrary Loan (or hoping Dr. Greenbaum will post her article on-line) are options for the budget-minded.

No, it's not practical, but the history of astrology is a fascinating topic: not just as an element of cultural history, but in terms of how specific practices developed. If a case can be made for whole-signs as the "original" house system, the "original" meanings of some of the houses nevertheless seem far less clear. Even if we can point to decans as conveying house-like meanings, the question remains what the Egyptians thought they were doing with them.

I think the evidence points to multiple systems of thematic house meanings in use prior to late antiquity. Some house meanings like the 12th seem uniform but what can we make of the 3rd house, for example? It is simultaneously the house of the goddess and "joy of the moon." Well, this works in cultures where the moon is personified as female; but less so in Egypt where lunar gods Khonsu and Thoth were male. We get a kind of binary with the 3rd house as goddess and the 9th house as god (Ra? Apollo?), but what does this tell us?

Then the third is also anciently the house of brothers in Hellenized Egypt. This works if we pair up the third house with the third sign of Gemini, but this doesn't seem to have been the ancient meaning. We also find ancient techniques like Dorotheus (I: 19) calculating the lot of brothers that do not refer to the third house.

So were there different traditions for the third house that took a while to settle down into coherently scripted meanings-- possibly with post hoc explanations applied to smooth out the diversity? Or was there a root tradition that somehow made different thematic contents appear rational in the minds of the knowledgeable insiders?

If someone can enlighten me here, I would appreciate it.

This seeming diversity in thematic house meanings prior to late antiquity is also one reason why I doubt that the "original" house system could have emerged coherently and uniformly in the early period of Hellenistic astrology.

Waybread wrote:

I think the evidence points to multiple systems of thematic house meanings in use prior to late antiquity. Some house meanings like the 12th seem uniform but what can we make of the 3rd house, for example? It is simultaneously the house of the goddess and "joy of the moon." Well, this works in cultures where the moon is personified as female; but less so in Egypt where lunar gods Khonsu and Thoth were male. We get a kind of binary with the 3rd house as goddess and the 9th house as god (Ra? Apollo?), but what does this tell us?

I think I may have the explanation for this apparent riddle. I recall being struck by a comment of Micah Ross, in his article on demotic horoscopes, that Egyptian horoscopes assigned the 'house of the Goddess' as actually the 10th house from the ASC sign not the 3rd. He suggests this might explain why Manilius uniquely gives the 10th an association as 'the temple of Venus'.

Mark

Then the third is also anciently the house of brothers in Hellenized Egypt. This works if we pair up the third house with the third sign of Gemini, but this doesn't seem to have been the ancient meaning.

Uh... please let's forget about the astrological ABC, that pairs up signs with houses. One of the major issues of confusion amongst moderners.
5th house is Leo and the Sun? Not likely, as children are probably the most important topic of the 5th, and Leo is a barren sign and the sun kills offspring.
Think again.

If the ancients had wanted to pair up signs and planets with topics, wouldn't they have considered placing Leo in the 10th, the place conducive to action and honour? Which is also one of the core meanings of the Sun?
And if you would want to assopciate Leo with self-expression wouldn't it then be assigned the 1st place, as that is the only place in a nativity where one can embody such creativity?

No, house meanings cannot be accounted for by a simple counting off of signs and houses starting with the Ram. And by the way, the Thema Mundi offers a better and more consistent paradigm for housemeanings.

Hermes wrote:

And by the way, the Thema Mundi offers a better and more consistent paradigm for housemeanings.

It was certainly a useful teaching tool to understand the rulerships, exaltations and aspects. Not so sure it clearly demonstrates the origins of house meanings as you suggest. I know you have studied with Robert Schmidt. Is this what he teaches?

I would think there are several other more fundamental elements in the development of house meanings:

1 The aspectual relationship of houses to the ASC. You can use the Thema Mundi to demonstrate this although it is not essential.

2 The Solar diurnal cycle. Especially the four quadrants. This goes back to Egyptian solar mysticism.

3 Planetary joys. The links seem very close to house meanings. The question is whether the house meanings pre-date the joys or vice versa.

4 The Chaldean order of the planets. Starting with 1st house=Saturn.

?Saturn-1st
?Jupiter-2nd
?Mars-3rd
?Sun-4th
?Venus-5th
?Mercury-6th
?Moon-7th
?Saturn-8th
?Jupiter-9th
?Mars-10th
?Sun-11th
?Venus-12th

The last scheme possibly explains why early astrologers like Valens associate Mars as a planet indicating travel. Jupiter appropriately is associated with wealth and spirituality. Saturn is very appropriate for the 8th, while the Sun is the natural significator of the Father. The Moon= marriage. Venus association with the 12th may seem strange but as the house of self undoing this can represent the negative side of pleasure seeking i.e. addictions.


Mark