Haven't checked in for a few days, I've been merrily sewing. Teddy bears for the grandkids, wreath wall hangings for my sister, daughters and mother, etc... but had a moment this morning to stop in and Wow! Thanks Tom, I hadn't ever heard about that particular use of the Grand conjunction. I will go do some looking!

And Andrew, doesn't it always seem the way, we get teachings from people who will pass before we are ready to fully understand what they were trying to tell us! I'm glad he mentioned it to a person who was able to pass it along. I think he did not leave enough written material behind. In 1984 I was 22 and pregnant with my second child, I did however attend several of the Olympic games in Los Angeles that year. it was an interesting year for me.

and happy winter holiday of your choice all. I think most here celebrate Christmas, but since I have a wide variety of relatives that celebrate many other things, (hey more joy to share! I"m okay with that!) I'll leave that open ended.

Granny!

One thing is trying to remember what Al H. Morrison said in 1984, which I am sure related to the groundbreaking in 1966 that Tom referred to. Another is relocating the material I looked into in afterhand. One thing is clear in my mind, there was nothing casual or trifling in Morrison approach when he told me the history of the towers and gave me his prediction - on the day of the lunar eclipse in Nov 1984.

Several matters that Morrison spoke about on that day were related to syzygy's, eclipses and eclipse paths, but there were things regarding timing (and techniques of ancient priest astrologers) that he hadn't quite figured out. He was quite clear that he did not know the time when the attack on the WTC would occur, but he was equally convinced I would see it happen.

The eclipse preceding the groundbreaking in 1966 was the lunar eclipse of Dec 8.1965 with the Moon 16GE25 square Pluto at 18VI25 and Uranus at 19VI30. Jupiter, who is lord of the eclipse by disposition of the luminary above the horison, was 27GE24r. Yet, I am wondering whether I found a reference that took me back to the total solar eclipse of May 30. 1965. Here the total eclipse occurred at 9GE13 with Jupiter 8GE38 and Uranus 10VI45.

Morrison died on May 29. 1995, which is only one day from the 30th anniversary of the total solar eclipse on May 30. 1965. On this day, May 29. 1995, the day Morrison passed away (Link), there was a new Moon at 7GE34 in opposition to Jupiter at 10SG53r. It becomes rather intriguing and I would feel compelled to suggest he was giving us a clue on where to look.

Really? -- he died on the new moon conjuct US Uranus at 7GE35?!! which new moon I use as further verification of US ascendant -- I never met Al H in the flesh, but we had an active correspondence for a while, and I developed my obsession for US history supporting my argument for the 7GE34 (take that Laurie Ephron) (the galactic plane is a much more reliable time keeper than the mythical 0Aries Sidereal, the cause of all our woes over ayanamsa)

As I recall, I also use this new moon as the dawn of the Age of Aquarius, -- www being shortly invented by al gore & aol around then --

Morrison was very psychic besides being an accomplished astrologer; he had stories about how he couldn't wear a watch -- his energies would stop them ...

I now have a quibble with the SF8 module the new moon algorithm therein which yields a 17AQ58 or so US moon rather than the good old 18AQ10 -- I could test it out though -- since I use a technique charting the transiting sun on natal moon ... those 12-14 minutes of arc are a couple of hours time apart ... I call this an alchemical and it can be uncanny for timing events in the cycle -- the solar on moon is an Almanac, I call the t-moon on the natal sun the 'zine -- you know, issue of the month which is the MC of the chart. I'll see if this lunar algorithmic facelift focuses on the US major issues and if the Aussies know what they're doing.

Andrew, have you looked at your chart in comparison with AHMs? something he might have done before meeting you, sometimes a person knows when a student or teacher is coming along... Just wondering.

Granny

I think that is a bit off-track, Granny. However, I do have a response: Morrison and I had corresponded a few years. I had purchased material from him and prepared material for the CAO TIMES. My reason for travelling to NY was to visit a Norwegian girl-friend serving as au pair for the priest at the Norwegian church in Manhattan. We later lived together for 7 years having two children, a Gemini and a Virgo. However, I do believe the girl may only have been the excuse for travelling to NY. I perceive that humans are like icebergs where the tip above the water is all we can see and understand. However, there is a lot more going on below the surface and this may weigh considerably more than the visable fraction. So the reason for being moved to NY at this point in time may not have been apparent to the eye, but something could have been going on in a larger plan or context. This is how I think things work.

Andrew wrote:

One thing is trying to remember what Al H. Morrison said in 1984, which I am sure related to the groundbreaking in 1966 that Tom referred to. Another is relocating the material I looked into in afterhand. One thing is clear in my mind, there was nothing casual or trifling in Morrison approach when he told me the history of the towers and gave me his prediction - on the day of the lunar eclipse in Nov 1984.

Several matters that Morrison spoke about on that day were related to syzygy's, eclipses and eclipse paths, but there were things regarding timing (and techniques of ancient priest astrologers) that he hadn't quite figured out. He was quite clear that he did not know the time when the attack on the WTC would occur, but he was equally convinced I would see it happen.

The eclipse preceding the groundbreaking in 1966 was the lunar eclipse of Dec 8.1965 with the Moon 16GE25 square Pluto at 18VI25 and Uranus at 19VI30. Jupiter, who is lord of the eclipse by disposition of the luminary above the horison, was 27GE24r. Yet, I am wondering whether I found a reference that took me back to the total solar eclipse of May 30. 1965. Here the total eclipse occurred at 9GE13 with Jupiter 8GE38 and Uranus 10VI45

Thanks Andrew,

First off I wasn't seeking to put you on the spot to come up with with Morrison's methodology. I sometimes find it difficult to remember recent conversations so its remarkable you can recollect or reconstruct as much as you have! You have certainly given us all useful material to look at and explore. I think it would be useful to put up these charts in this thread.

I know next to nothing of AH Morrison. He does sound a remarkable man. However, I find the specificity and lack of equivocation of his prediction hard to reconcile with purely astrological symbolism. Surely, we have all encountered the experience of various things being symbolized by a planetary significator? How then could Morrison be so definitive about a Boeing Jet hitting the Twin Towers? The other odd thing was that Morrison didn't seem to know exactly when this event would occur. It seems the prediction was based on foundational charts and eclipses etc.

Maybe I am just demonstrating the poverty of my astrological knowledge and ability but this seems to fit an insight derived from an intuitive flash. That doesn't mean astrological symbolism wasn't used in reaching that point.

I know the suggestion an astrologer was incoprporating psychic ability in a prediction can be seen as insulting to some practitioners. It can be seen to be diminishing someones astrological ability at the expense of psychic hunches. Considering the hard work and time that astrological prediction can involve that is understandable.

However, I dont see it is this way myself. I think it can be just seen as an additional plus or bonus some people bring to the art. That doesn't mean they cannot offer an astrological analysis to explain their prediction. However, I suspect other astrologers may struggle to get to precisely the same prediction even in hindsight. I think a lot of astrologers are reluctant to discuss this subject for fear that astrology will be linked to closely to divinatory arts like Tarot or I Ching.

In any case this isn't the philosophy forum. These are just my own musings on the subject. Feel welcome to reject my point of view if you choose.

I do think we should at least endeavour to see what AH Morrison was up to astrologicaly and look forward discussing that further here.

Jupiter, who is lord of the eclipse by disposition of the luminary above the horison, was 27GE24r.

Interesting. This was the same degree the Moon was on at the time of the Twin Towers attack. It is also the location of the reddish fixed star Betelgeuse which Ptolemy stated was of the nature of Mars and Mercury.

The eclipse preceding the groundbreaking in 1966 was the lunar eclipse of Dec 8.1965

There was also a Lunar eclipse on May 4th 1966 which preceded the groundbreaking of the WTC on August 5th 1966. However, both this and the December 1965 lunar eclipse took place in daylight in New York. There was therefore no visible lunar eclipse on either date. If Morrison was influenced by Mesopotamian techniques as you indicated this could be significant as the Mesopotamian astrologers and later Ptolemy only considered visible eclipses in the location concerned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_20 ... r_eclipses

There was also an annular solar eclipse on May 20th 1966. Not visible from NY so I have displayed it here at the point of exact zodiacal conjunction
Eclipse path of Annular eclipse 1966: Guinea, Mali, Algeria, Libya, Greece, Turkey, southern Russia, China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_so ... th_century

Note the heavy concentration of planets in late Taurus. The ascendant, Lot of fortune, and the eclipse itself on the generally malefic fixed star cluster known as the Pleiades which are of the nature of the Moon and Mars. Both Venus (Lord 1) and Mars ( Lord 7) disposit each other from their zodiacal signs of detriment.

Mark

I am beginning to recall just how complicated finding a foundational date for the WTC is! This section from one of Tom's earlier posts here highlights the problem.

Tom wrote:

But in the course of my research I also pulled up some charts regarding the beginning of construction. The problem, as is always a problem with this sort of thing, is that there is no one set date and of course no easily obtainable time of day. I didn't spend too much time on these charts because no classical astrologer would have used them unless he knew the attack would be on the Twin Towers in the first place.

My question is: What foundation chart(s) would Morrison have used and what would he compare them to? There was groundbreaking in 1966 for the first tower and another groundbreaking for the second some time later . Should we use the opening in 1974, or capping even though the building was open for business but not yet completed when that happened. My desktop research could not produce a time of day for the ceremonies and is that the right date or do we need to look for final approval from the City?

I had thought the 5th of August 1966 could be taken as the original date for groundbreaking. However, I found this reference in the web site below:

Construction begins on March 21 at the WTC site with the demolition of 78 Dey Street.

http://www.panynj.gov/wtcprogress/history-wtc.html

This site contains a chronology of various events in the project.

Does this demolition count as a foundational date or should be go with the actual groundbreaking to build the WTC site? What about the opening of the different buildings? Or the official approval from New York city authority? Then there is the dedication ceremony in April 1973 Unfortunately, the WTC is probably one of the toughest complexes to agree a key date on.

There are traditional horoscopes for things like the founding of Baghdad. Those astrologers seem to have relied on the date for the beginning of the construction and that approach still makes sense to me.

However, the question here is what was AH Morrison thinking?

Mark

Mark

There are traditional horoscopes for things like the founding of Baghdad.

If I recall correctly this was an election, but if they started building the city at the elected time it is also a foundation chart.

The problems with foundation charts in mundane astrology are apparent with this problem. We're only looking at WTC charts. What about NYC foundation charts? The actual attack is on the USA and the symbol of financial wealth and power. So what about the USA chart(s)?

There would have been a Jupiter Saturn conjunction in about 1960 which would have been in effect when the groundbreaking began and then there is the 1980 or 81 conjunction and the following one. Since we started with Morrison and this conversation took place in 1984, that might be the chart or the preceding Aries Ingress as Hand suggested.

I don't know that Morrison was a classical astrologer in the sense that we mean that term, but he would have used eclipses etc I'll look at some of the conjunctions and preceding Aries Ingress charts cast for NYC.

Just looking through a few things; the idea of a World Trade Centre was first proposed in 1943. There was a solar eclipse on Aug. 1 1943 at 8LE03, which by instance also is conjunct Jupiter at 6LE50.

Morrison's research into the history of the building certainly went into the purchasing or acquiring of property.

Wikipedia: On September 20, 1962, the Port Authority announced the selection of Minoru Yamasaki as lead architect and Emery Roth & Sons as associate architects.

On July 31. 1962 there was a solar eclipse at 7LE49 in opposition to Saturn at 8AQ05, so Saturn would be in a state of destruction through its opposition to the Sun and eclipse.

Tom wrote:

The problems with foundation charts in mundane astrology are apparent with this problem. We're only looking at WTC charts. What about NYC foundation charts? The actual attack is on the USA and the symbol of financial wealth and power. So what about the USA chart(s)?

That is a perfectly valid point. I wholeheatedly agree if we are discussing the WTC attacks in a general sense. However, I was trying to follow up Andrew's suggestion at the beginning of the thread that AH Morrison had studied the WTC in considerable detail and had knowledge of its construction.

Andrew wrote:

Just looking through a few things; the idea of a World Trade Centre was first proposed in 1943. There was a solar eclipse on Aug. 1 1943 at 8LE03, which by instance also is conjunct Jupiter at 6LE50.

Morrison's research into the history of the building certainly went into the purchasing or acquiring of property.

Well if that was Morrison's line of thinking its clearly lost on me. This whole exercise feels like looking for the Cheshire cat.

Henceforth I think I will focus my energy more on the general issue of the WTC attacks using mundane astrological techniques such as Robert Hand seems to have utilised. If we are going to learn anything of use from history we need mundane techniques that we can replicate.

Mark

Mark wrote:Well if that was Morrison's line of thinking its clearly lost on me. This whole exercise feels like looking for the Cheshire cat.

I can see your point and was a bit hesitant before entering that last post. However, with the case of Titanic there were several charts that related to several stages of becoming, the launching and maiden trip - all in which there was left a clue of default. Looking for the Cheshire cat? That is about like asking someone to prove astrology, isn't it. Just to add a word on cultural differences: After our roundtrip Morrison took me out for a meal and when we both were satisfied he asked for a doggie bag. I looked at him in suprise and said: "But you don't have a dog, do you??"

Andrew wrote:

Looking for the Cheshire cat? That is about like asking someone to prove astrology, isn't it.

mmm maybe that is a good analogy for those trying to do that. In other words it keeps appearing and disappearing in quite mischevious ways.... Plus it always has a big grin on its face. Maybe Morrison would have been amused by all these attempts to follow the bread crumbs he left behind?

I just feel the evidence is to too scant to try and sleuth exactly what Morrison or Zoller were up to. I would rather retrospectively try and work it out for myself using general mundane techniques. Plus if it turns out Morrison did rely a lot on charts for the WTC its not going to be much use as a general approach for mundane astrologers today. Noone else could have possibly predicted this. And yet me know others did....I think adopting a more general approach to this issue is (for me) a more constructive way forward.

As this thread is integrally linked to AL. H Morrison I think I may open a new thread for those wanting to discuss the 9/11 attacks using using general mundane astrology. Are we any wiser after this event? Could we predict such a catastrophe occuring in the future? If so how? A lot of explanations for the 9/11 attacks satisfied themselves with transits to the Sibly chart (or other chosen chart) or even just the event chart itself. However, that kind of approach is far too superficial. We can do better than that.

Mark