Hello:

I?m trying to understand why the years of each planet?s firdar are distributed in the way they are: Sun, 10 years; Venus 8 years ( okay,it is its lesser years); Mercury , 13 years; Moon, 9 years ;Saturn, 11 years; Jupiter 12 years( okay it is its lesser years) and Mars 7 years.

It does not correspond to Ptolemy?s ages of man, as I assumed. I read again and again Abu Mashar trying to find an explanation. He says something about exaltations but this does not makes any sense for me.

Are there some good soul to enlighten me on this point?

Thank you in advance

Cl?lia

Hi Clelia,

Far as I know there isn't any explanation, but I haven't seen that Abu Mashar passage, so it might be there?

As for some speculation, if you look at it from the "Chaldean" order of the planets:

Moon+Mercury+Venus=30 years
Sun=10 years
Mars+Jupiter+Saturn=30 years

The Sun gets the average of 10 years, which is interesting since it is in the middle of the order.

Note that the nocturnal planets are all under 10 years, the diurnal planets 10 or more years. Mercury has 13, but it is common to both sects. Figuring out how Mercury has 13 would provide the logic of the distribution of the years.

Hi Gabe!

Thanks for the answer.
What bugs me is that Venus and Mars has the same number as its minor years, so the others could have some rationale as well. And you?re right: the years given to Mercury is a puzzling question!

You can read the " exaltation" thing at On Solar Revolutions, Persian Nativities lll, page 65, first paragraph:
" ...For the years of the firdariyyat were ordened according to the order of the exaltations of the planets which they have in the signs"
And he continues saying that the number can not be equal to those in the Ages of Man because here it happens a distribution between the lord and the sub lords.

I don?t have the first volume of Schmidt?s translation of the same book to compare. But in the way it is written it is difficult to get Abu Mashar? point;-)

Thank you Gabe and have a nice year!

Cl?lia

GR wrote:Hi Clelia,

Far as I know there isn't any explanation, but I haven't seen that Abu Mashar passage, so it might be there?

As for some speculation, if you look at it from the "Chaldean" order of the planets:

Moon+Mercury+Venus=30 years
Sun=10 years
Mars+Jupiter+Saturn=30 years

The Sun gets the average of 10 years, which is interesting since it is in the middle of the order.

Note that the nocturnal planets are all under 10 years, the diurnal planets 10 or more years. Mercury has 13, but it is common to both sects. Figuring out how Mercury has 13 would provide the logic of the distribution of the years.

There is another thing I'd like to observe for each of the planets, as follows, inspired on the remark about exaltations and taking the Thema Mundi as reference:

If you take:

Saturn - From 15? Leo to 15? Libra (exaltion sign of Saturn) there are 11 portions of 30? (counting against the order of signs)

Jupiter - From 15? Cancer to 15? Cancer (exaltation sign of Jupiter) there are 12 portions of 30? (counting in the order of signs)

Mars - From 15? Cancer to 15? Capricorn (exaltation sign of Mars) there are 7 portions of 30? (counting either way)

Sun - From 15? Cancer to 15? Aries (exaltation sign of the Sun) there are 10 portions of 30? (counting in the order of signs)

Venus - Here onwards the pattern starts to break, but from 15? Cancer to 0? Pisces (exaltation sign to Venus) there are 8,5 portions of 30?. But taking it from 15? Leo to 15? Pisces there would be exactly the expected 8 portions (both countings in the order of signs).

Mercury - I'm not considering the first arrival to Virgo here, since there would be no cycle acomplished, but the second, so, from 15? Leo to 15? Virgo (exaltation sign of Mercury) there are 13 portions of 30? (again, in the order of signs). If we took from Cancer, there would be 14, so maybe the "correct" value is actually 13,5??

Moon - Finally, from 15? Leo to 0? Taurus (exaltation sign of the Moon) there are 9,5 portions of 30? (again, following the order of the signs).

Hi PFN!

That might be it! I was trying to rationalize the nocturnal planets losing portions from the average 10 from the Sun & the diurnal planets gaining from the average, but your schema works from the reasoning of the exaltations given by Abu Ma'shar. Very good very nice.

GR wrote:Hi PFN!

That might be it! I was trying to rationalize the nocturnal planets losing portions from the average 10 from the Sun & the diurnal planets gaining from the average, but your schema works from the reasoning of the exaltations given by Abu Ma'shar. Very good very nice.

Thanks Gabe. I'm unsure if this is the best scheme, but it is a start

One thing that I noticed is that in every case, the longest arc is the one chosen to match. For example, in the case of Saturn, it is against the order of signs because that would produce the longest distance between the domicile of the luminar we leave off untill reaching the exaltation for Saturn (and also, in the Thema Mundi, Saturn is in a peculiar spot, being the only planet above the horizon, since the Moon is rising and he is about to set). The only situation where this "longest arc rule" does not hold is in the case of the Moon: the longest arc for the Moon would be if leaving from Cancer, but she has to leave from Leo to come closer to the 9 years alloted to her. Interestingly enough, the Sun exchanges his starting point with the Moon, leaving from Cancer, instead of Leo.

Also, if I could point, for every planet in a diurnal sign (Jupiter in Sagitarius, Sun in Leo, Venus in Libra) we are leaving from Cancer, while for every planet in a nocturnal one (Saturn in Capricorn, Mercury in Virgo) we are leaving from Leo, except for Mars, that leaves from Cancer and the Moon, that leaves from Leo, still I still feel that this pattern break could be "allright", if we think that Moon and Sun are torn halves of the same perfection. In the case of Mars, it is hard to say anything...

Small edit: Mars arc actually starts from Cancer, despite him being in a nocturnal sign, Scorpio...

Thanks Gabe. I'm unsure if this is the best scheme, but it is a start

And it it is a new idea and a really good start! Thank you very much for your ideas!

One thing that I noticed is that in every case, the longest arc is the one chosen to match. For example, in the case of Saturn, it is against the order of signs because that would produce the longest distance between the domicile of the luminar we leave off untill reaching the exaltation for Saturn (and also, in the Thema Mundi, Saturn is in a peculiar spot, being the only planet above the horizon, since the Moon is rising and he is about to set). The only situation where this "longest arc rule" does not hold is in the case of the Moon: the longest arc for the Moon would be if leaving from Cancer, but she has to leave from Leo to come closer to the 9 years alloted to her. Interestingly enough, the Sun exchanges his starting point with the Moon, leaving from Cancer, instead of Leo.Also, if I could point, for every planet in a diurnal sign (Jupiter in Sagitarius, Sun in Leo, Venus in Libra) we are leaving from Cancer, while for every planet in a nocturnal one (Saturn in Capricorn, Mars in Scorpio, Mercury in Virgo) we are leaving from Leo. Only in the case of the Moon, that is in a nocturnal place, we leave from Leo, still I still feel that this pattern break could be "allright", if we think that Moon and Sun are torn halves of the same perfection.

Yes, the Sun begins from the sign of the Moon and the Moon from the sign of the Sun: both are luminaries and they change places to show the unity between them.

The Thema Mundi is a big condensation of many obscures and cryptic doctrines!

Thank you, again!