Hi all. I'm new here, but have been lurking for a long time and finally have got some things I'd like to discuss. Please feel free to tell me if I'm doing anything wrong or making a mistake somewhere. I'm still new.

I've read somewhere (now I can't find it again) that an aspect is strengthened when the dispositor of one of the planets (or both in a conjunction) is Lord/Lady of the Ascendant. This got me thinking about how to time and locate specifc astrological events (always a brain teaser for me) and thought "ah-hah!" to use the Moon as a "trigger" for timing and in those places where the lunar dispositor is also ruling the ascendant then maybe those places the aspect is most strongly manifest? Just an idea.

So I ran with this and found an easy way to program my astrology software (Astrolog 5.4) to show me where a particular sign rises at particular time and date. I then ran this, as an experiment, for the next eclipse (May 20 Annular Solar Eclipse, at 0?20 Gemini) and look what part of the world Gemini is on the asendant at the moment of totallity (the "Ach" and "Pol" lines):
It seems to most closely fall over Burma, Indochina, Malaysia, western Indonesia, Tibet, western Australia and some largely uninhabited parts of Siberia (the "Zet" and "PlePol" lines are those of Virgo, basically only falling on Alaska and Hawaii). Since Burma seems to be the only country undergoing any sort of special change worthy of an eclipse right now, I find this striking.

What I find most interesting about this is the seeming benevolence of this eclipse. It is "besieged" by the benefics Venus and Jupiter and partile conjunct the Pleiades, which "according to Ptolemy, The Pleiades are of the nature of the Moon and Mars. They are in analogy with fair, love, wine, feast, or when they are not well-aspected, with debauchery, lechery, wantonness, and excesses in general." The Pleiades' are beseiged by benefics and their dispositor is conjunct Jupiter, so the negative version mentioned above seems unwarrented.
It is interesting how the only country it most directly falls over (Gemini rising, that is) is Burma. Since solar eclipses have historically been associated with "regime changes" it is very interesting the connections here.

Two other aspects of note here are the applying, dexter (if I understand those qualifications of aspects properly from here: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html) square the eclipse is making to a dignified Neptune and a partile, sinister trine from Venus to a dignified Saturn (though Venus dominates Saturn), both of which seem like benevolent influences. Finally the Lord of the Eclipse is also the Lord of the Ascendant over the location of greatest totallity (49?N by 176?E, according to NASA, which is out in the middle of the north Pacific), another positive sign.

What do you think?

Thanks for your post and welcome to the mundane forum!

I am afraid I have much less time for the forum than I would like at present. Hence I have been a lot more scarce here than normal. However, this post really interested me as you appear to be proposing an original way of working with eclipses.

Taking a literal visual astrology approach to this its worth pointing out that the Annular eclipse of May 20th is visible from Burma although it appears to just be under the penumbral shadow rather than being on the path of maximum obscurity across the world. A partial eclipse will certainly be visible for just a few minutes at sunrise of the morning of May 20th from Rangoon. (see comments below on the the eclipse path)

In any case, political events in Burma make it an intriguing focus of astrological analysis irrespective of the eclipse. Looking at news from Burma the next general election is set for April 1st 2012.

Aung San Suu Kyi the leader of the National League for Democracy and a Nobel Peace Prize winner was released from years of house arrest last November. Her NLD party won a landslide victory in the 1990 election which was ignored by the military government. The current civilian government, although under strong military control, has followed a policy of gradual liberalisation. This has opened the tantalising possibility of a gradual return to full democracy after 50 years of military control of Burma dating back to the coup of 1962. While the NLD boycotted the last elections they are standing this time in enough seats to form the official opposition to the government.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16606608

This election will be a vital test of whether the military will allow the NLD to take up its seats as the official opposition. If this does occur what you describe as the 'benign' configuration of planets in this elipse will be fulfilled.

It seems an eventful time in Burma. Last week the government signed a ceasefire deal with Karen rebels - who have fought for greater autonomy for more than 60 years.

You state:

I then ran this, as an experiment, for the next eclipse (May 20 Annular Solar Eclipse, at 0?20 Gemini) and look what part of the world Gemini is on the asendant at the moment of totallity (the "Ach" and "Pol" lines):

I was initially a bit confused by your technique as I haven't seen it utilised before.

Especially, as the point of greatest eclipse is moving across the world so the timing of the eclipse will vary depending on location. So how do you establish a rising sign at all? From what location?

Looking into this in more depth it does seem that astronomically along the eclipse path there is always a location of maximum eclipse. For example during this eclipse it is on the following co-ordinates:

Coordinates 49.1N 176 3E

While the time of greatest eclipse is 23:53:54 on May 20th

The greatest eclipse seems to be occuring over the north pacific. Here is (I hope!) the correct chart:
The eclipse occurs in the 10th house of the chart so is powerfully expressed. Interesting that Virgo rises and Jupiter is on the MC in Taurus. Mercury is the Lord of the eclipse + ASC and applies to a conjunction of Jupiter. By zodiacal projection the MC is on the fixed star Algol. However, in terms of stars rising at that specific location (in mundo) the benefic fixed star Alphecca (of the nature of Venus and Jupiter) is on the IC. The Moon squares Mars.

Clearly, the eclipse is happening in tropical Gemini all along the eclipse path. However, it is an original idea to focus on where the same sign is rising within the areas the eclipse is visible. At least its original to me. Maybe others have come across this?

A more traditional approach is to look at the countries along the path of the eclipse. This annular eclipse the path starts in China and goes on to cross Japan, the pacific and the western USA. Cities along the eclipse path with greatest obscuration include Hong Kong, Tokyo and San Francisco.

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEgoogle/S ... oogle.html
Mark

Hello and thank you for your reply. My approach is original to myself. I was testing out an idea and since I'm not all that sure-footed in my astrological analysis (though have had a long-standing interesting in astrology) I wanted to bring up my idea, "float it," with some people who might provide some guidance or ideas about how useful or valid my newly invented approach might be. The conclusions also just seemed "right," most of all the connection of the eclipse to Burma, when I first ran the chart.

The chart in the second picture is at the coordinates you show (it's shown on the upper-right of my chart) but the time is GMT according to what Astrolog says is the moment of most exact conjunction (which may or may not be the moment of greatest eclipse, I am not an astrolmy expert and only try to understand it as best I can to better my understanding of astrology). However I have found an odd tendency for Astrolog to often be a bit off in the exact moment of sola-lunar events compared to what I can find about those events (i.e eclipses, new and full moons) elsewhere. Thus the 50 minute time difference between my chart and the official eclipse time. Nonetheless, the rising sign is the same for my chart and the chart for the offical eclipse time, so I didn't feel too worried.

I am sorry I cannot find the exact source of the idea for "looking to the location where a planet-in-aspect's dispositor is rising to show where on earth it may manifest" technique. I have looked quite a lot around at my usual astrology sites I visit and cannot see where that idea came to me from.

I do not know what zodiacal projection is, so I will not comment on that. I do find it most interesting the eclipse falls on the exact zodiacial degree of the Pleiades (again, according to Astrolog), and that is one of the things which really opened my eyes about it.

Hello and thank you for your reply. My approach is original to myself. I was testing out an idea and since I'm not all that sure-footed in my astrological analysis (though have had a long-standing interesting in astrology) I wanted to bring up my idea, "float it," with some people who might provide some guidance or ideas about how useful or valid my newly invented approach might be. The conclusions also just seemed "right," most of all the connection of the eclipse to Burma, when I first ran the chart.

Well I personally 'get' the logic of your idea. Plus it has the attractive advantage that it makes the link to countries through the actual rising signs rather than traditional associations that can be controversial. Of course as you point out several countries will have the same sign rising so there does need to be some political judgement in selecting a particular country. The key point though is whether the idea works out in practice. It would need a lot more testing out out but it seems worthy of further investigation to me.

The chart in the second picture is at the coordinates you show (it's shown on the upper-right of my chart)

My apology. This is a bit embarrasing but I somehow didn't notice your chart! We seem to have arrived at the same chart but different times. My source was the Wikipedia data for the time and location of maximum eclipse:

but the time is GMT according to what Astrolog says is the moment of most exact conjunction (which may or may not be the moment of greatest eclipse, I am not an astrolmy expert and only try to understand it as best I can to better my understanding of astrology).

We have discussed this quite a bit on the forum lately. Essentially, there are two approaches to eclipse charts. The ancient one found in sources like Ptolemy and renaissance astrologers like Cardano posits the idea that an eclipse chart should be timed for the moment of greatest eclipse when the light of the Sun is most obscured. Another approach found in modern astrology particularly is based on an eclipse chart utilising zodiacal conjunction of the luminaries (or their opposition if a Lunar eclipse). The first approach is more visual while the latter more symbolic. The main difficulty with the zodiacal conjunction approach is that the chart can be for a location where the eclipse was never visible. Moreover, the zodiacal conjunction seldom coincides with the moment of greatest eclipse when the light of the Sun is most obscured. However, supporters of this approach argue an eclipse can still have an effect in a location where it is not visible. The assumption is that the eclipse has a effect across the ecliptic. I am assuming the time given for maximum eclipse is visible since the luminaries are not in exact zodiacal alignment.

However I have found an odd tendency for Astrolog to often be a bit off in the exact moment of sola-lunar events compared to what I can find about those events (i.e eclipses, new and full moons) elsewhere. Thus the 50 minute time difference between my chart and the official eclipse time. Nonetheless, the rising sign is the same for my chart and the chart for the offical eclipse time, so I didn't feel too worried.

Yes that is odd. I dont know what is going on there.

Mark

Mark; again thank you for your replies. Based on what you say I am now inclined to make eclipse charts for the eclipse moment rather than conjunction moment, since that has more weight of opinion behind it.

One way to test would be to look to historical eclipses and find their dispositor-rising-sign locations and see what happens. Since this eclipse doesn't seem to exactly coincide in date and time with events in Burma (assuming that country is the "main target" of the eclipse) I would say that its effect is spread out over a wide time frame, throughout the year say, and not at that exact date and time. This seems in accord with what I understand of traditional eclipse interpretation, in that its effects may or may not be immediate and tend to happen "around" the eclipse, within a period of months to years on either side of the actual date.

As you say many countries are "under" the eclipse's influence according to my technique, but unless something suddenly happens in one of them very near the date of the eclipse I'd say its safe to assume Burma is the main beneficiary of its influence (a good approach to geo-locating astrological influences in general).

I am quite busy with a lot of things right now and may get around to testing my technique as I have said, but it could take a wile to find the time.

PS: When Astrolog is off a bit in time, its usually not on the order of 50 minutes, more like 2-4 minutes. I can never quite explain why, but sometimes I wonder (since Astrolog hasn't been updates in like 20 years) if somehow has to do with leap seconds or something like this? Just speculation (could there really have been 240 leap seconds since 1992? I kind of doubt it).

Andy wrote:

I do not know what zodiacal projection is, so I will not comment on that. I do find it most interesting the eclipse falls on the exact zodiacial degree of the Pleiades (again, according to Astrolog), and that is one of the things which really opened my eyes about it.

By zodiacal projection I mean taking the celestial position of a star and projecting it on to the poles of the ecliptic. This is based on the celestial position of a star in relation to the earth. In this approach a star remains in a particular zodiacal degree for many decades before its position changes through precession. It will remain projected on to that degree for everywhere on earth. Hence today Algol is at 26 Taurus in any chart on earth using zodiacal projection. The main criticism of this approach is that it doesn't reflect where stars are in the local sky. Hence if looking at a chart in Australia one could argue Algol was at 26 degrees Taurus. However, it is actually invisible from that location! Equally, some stars never rise and set in a specific location as they are circumpolar and remain overhead all the time. Hence one could have a chart with 26 Taurus rising in say Scotland. This would imply Algol was 'rising'. In reality it would be overhead and circumpolar! Even when a star is visible there is often a total disconnection between the in mundo or local space position and that arrived at by zodiacal projection.

The other approach to working with stars can be called in mundo or a local space approach. In this approach we look at the actual position of stars and their diurnal motion rising and setting across the horizon. Hence in mundo a star 'rising' would be literally conjunct the ascendant in that location. I tend to give more weight to this in mundo or local space position of stars.

An example from natal astrology I like to give is the American actor Clint Eastwood. His chart has a rising degree of 18.35 Scorpio. At the time he was born the star Vega was exactly rising on the horizon in San Francisco. However, if you simply project that stars position on to the ecliptic it will always be around 14 Capricorn anywhere on earth that day. So the local space position of Vega in San Francisco differs almost two signs out from where we would be led to believe it is by zodiacal projection.

This problem of a disconnection between local space and zodiacal projection is really an issue with stars well outside the ecliptic such as Vega, Arcturus, Capella , Algol etc. There is much more coincidence between the two techniques when you utilise stars very close to the ecliptic such as Regulus, Spica or the Pleiades.

Andy wrote:

It is "besieged" by the benefics Venus and Jupiter and partile conjunct the Pleiades, which "according to Ptolemy, The Pleiades are of the nature of the Moon and Mars. They are in analogy with fair, love, wine, feast, or when they are not well-aspected, with debauchery, lechery, wantonness, and excesses in general." The Pleiades' are beseiged by benefics and their dispositor is conjunct Jupiter, so the negative version mentioned above seems unwarrented.

Your correct that the eclipse is conjunct the Pleiades. The Pleiades are very close to the ecliptic so that there is a conjunction with this star cluster both in terms of zodiacal projection and local space. In terms of zodiacal projection the Pleiades are at the very end of Taurus and beginning of Gemini. The brightest star Alcyone precessed into tropical Gemini over a decade ago.

I don?t entirely share your view that the Pleiades are are rendered more benefic here. In general terms just about all sources indicate the strongly malefic nature of this star cluster. That has also been my experience in many charts. Hence in horary this star cluster is often given the catchphrase ?something to weep about? .

The proximity of Jupiter means it is invisible in the sky and 'under the beams'. This is weakening for a planet. Venus is at the end of Gemini and out of any kind of orb. The next applying aspect of the Moon is a square to Neptune. In terms of traditional aspects the next aspect is a square to Mars. This aspect in closer in mundo. What is positive is the fact the Lord of the eclipse and ASC is applying to a conjunction of Jupiter. Still Mercury is applying to the Sun and is already combust.

Vivian Robson in his highly influential 'The Fixed Stars and Constellations in Astrology' (1927) states the Pleiades are unambiguously of the nature of the Moon and Mars amd malefic in nature.

According to Ptolemy they are of the nature of the Moon and Mars; and, to Alvidas, of Mars, Moon and Sun in opposition. They are said to make their natives wanton, ambitious, turbulent, optimistic and peaceful; to give many journeys and voyages, success in agriculture and through active intelligence; and to cause blindness, disgrace and a violent death. Their influence is distinctly evil and there is no astrological warrant for the oft-quoted passage Job (xxxviii. 31)" Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades? "which is probably a mistranslation''
'The Fixed Stars and Constellation in Astrology' (1927) Vivian Robson

In Greek myth the Pleiades are called "Weeping Sisters" because, in various versions of the myth the sisters are associated with grief. According to Greek mythology there were , seven sisters, Alcyone, Merope, Cel?no, Taygeta, Maia, Electra and Sterope. Electra was the wife of Corythus. She was raped by Zeus and gave birth to Dardanus, who became the founder of Troy, ancestor of Priam and his house. According to one legend, she was the lost Pleiad, disappearing in grief after the destruction of Troy. Hence her sisters mourn the loss of the missing Pleiad. According to another version of the myth, the Seven Sisters committed suicide through grief at their father's everlasting task of having to support the world on his shoulders, his punishment for fighting with the Titans against the gods of Mount Olympus.

Yet another version of the myth is related by the first century Roman writer Gaius Julius Hyginus (ca. 64 BC ? AD 17). Again the myth has an unfortunate association linked to death:

The Pleiades were so named, according to Musaeaus, because fifteen daughters were born to Atlas and Aethra, daughter of Ocean. Five of them are called Hyades, he shows, because their brother was Hyas, a youth dearly beloved by his sisters. When he was killed in a lion hunt, the five we have mentioned, given over to continual lamentation, are said to have perished. Because they grieved exceedingly at his death, they are called Hyades. The remaining ten brooded over the death of their sisters, and brought death on themselves; because so many experienced the same grief, they were called Pleiades. Alexander says they were called Hyades because they were daughters of Hyas and Boeotia, Pleiades, because born of Pleio, daughter of Ocean, and Atlas. Astronomica, Hyginus.

The 2nd century astrologer Vettius Valens states of the Pleiades:

the place round the Pleiades, it is undistinguished, destructive, pestilential, thunder-causing, productive of earthquakes and thunderbolts and generative of lightning.

In Mesopotamian belief this star cluster are linked to violence, death and the underworld:

?The regents of the star cluster (Pleiades) are a group of battle-inciting deities called the Seven Gods, in Akkadian the Sebetti. They are found in the entourage of Erra the god of war, plague and death?.the star cluster is one of the most frequently used names for the violent and malevolent planet Mars. The attribution is primarily derived dfrom the Sebetti being attendant upon the god Erra-Nergal, who is closely associated with Mars in astrology? (Babylonian Star-Lore-Gavin White)

Known as Krittka In ancient India the star cluster called the Pleiades was associated with six goddesses and have a strongly martial association:

?they acted as nurses to an infant God called Skanda or Karttikeya who was born in the Pleiades and grew up to become the leader of the armies of the gods. In Hindu astrology , this god is associated with the planet Mars the archetype of the warrior.

As might be expected , given the Martian symbolism associated with this ?Star of Fire? , Pleidian people are fiery characters with intense, powerful emotions. This mansion is said to be governed or ?ruled? by the ancient Vedic god Agni, who is the symbol of fire itself. The name Krittka, however, is related to the name Karttikeya, the God Skanda but also signifies a razor.. and indeed the razor is the principal symbol of mansion 3. These natives are sharp and cutting? ( Mansions of the Moon-Kenneth Johnson)

To the Mayans and Aztecs the Pleiades cluster were important astrologically and were known as 'The Rattle Snake.'

I accept there is a sub theme of a Venusian like quality to the stars too in some sources such as Manilius, Firmicus down to William Lilly. However, its usually a more negative association linked to hedonism, narcissism and promiscuity.

I recommend this article on the constellation of Taurus by Deborah Houlding which has a good discussion of the astrological associations of the Pleiades.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/taurus_myth.html

For a more practical demonstration of what I mean take a look at this thread on the Polish Presidential plane crash in 2010. Check out the chart for the take off time which is right on the Pleiades.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5275

Mark

Interesting. Well that is much to consider. One thing, and this is somewhat more of my personal, idiosyncratic approach to astrology again; might not planets near a eclipse be benefited by visibility with the eclipse and thus render combustion/UTRs moot? Essentially the idea is that those planets/stars near the eclipse are "revealed" in the dramatis momentum of the eclipse and participate in the "event." That is unorothdox to be sure, but I like running my ideas past other people's minds (who have far more expertise than I do, and I mightily appreciate your time disucssing them with me).

Andy wrote:

One thing, and this is somewhat more of my personal, idiosyncratic approach to astrology again; might not planets near a eclipse be benefited by visibility with the eclipse and thus render combustion/UTRs moot? Essentially the idea is that those planets/stars near the eclipse are "revealed" in the dramatis momentum of the eclipse and participate in the "event." That is unorothdox to be sure, but I like running my ideas past other people's minds (who have far more expertise than I do, and I mightily appreciate your time disucssing them with me).

Intriguing notion. There is a difference between half baked tangents and raising logical points from a different perspective. That kind of 'idiosyncracy' proves you have a sharp and inquiring mind. I dont have a ready answer for you. Of course there is no compulsion to accept the concept of under the rays at all. I like it because it is one of the most ancient ideas in astrology and because it ties our symbolism into the real sky. However, the French renaissance astrologer Morin completely rejected the idea. Its of course completely alien to many modern astrologers. Our moderator Tom, certainly no modern but an authority on Morin, has questioned the logic of combustion here on Skyscript several times. Personally, I think the notion that the loss of visibility of a planet in proximity to the Sun is weakening to its power makes complete sense to me. Traditionally, the new Moon is the weakest part of the lunar cycle. I accept with Mercury being under the rays is very common. On that basis and its permanent proximity to the Sun one could argue it is less effected by being under the rays. In any case as this is an annular rather than a total eclipse the light of the Sun will not be completely obscured. You make an interesting point though.

Mark