Martin Gansten wrote: His house system had been in use earlier; the earliest evidence of which I am aware dates to the 12th century (certainly not to Ptolemy's time).

Maybe yes, but in every case Placidus was very attentive of where points of Ptolemy's example on directions fell.

margherita

margherita wrote:Maybe yes, but in every case Placidus was very attentive of where points of Ptolemy's example on directions fell.

Oh, I absolutely agree. Placidus very likely only made explicit what he thought that Ptolemy must have intended. Whether Ptolemy did intend it is of course a different matter.

The painting on the cover of my primary directions book shows 'Prince Ptolemy' as conceived by a Renaissance artist. I think that's a good allegory for Placidean teachings. On one hand, they idolize Ptolemy; on the other, they can't avoid dressing him up in the garb of their own time.

Hello james m

Re: Topocentric and Primary Directions and [james m: "...doing primary directions topocentric makes more sense to me..."]

Considering that Topocentric houses were invented/discovered by using well-verified astrological charts and looking at where the cusps SHOULD be for various Primary Directions at events; it makes logical sense to use this method, since it was empirically derived.

The bottom line... if you want Primary Directions that have "hot cusps" (ie. appropriate cusps being activated at symbolically related events, 3rd for Brothers/Sisters, 5th for Children, 8th for issues of Death, etc.) and aspects that act within scant minutes of arc, then you'll have to use Topocentric. No other approach offers the above mentioned benefits.

To use the antique method is to disregard the fundamental discoveries of the last 100 years, which have lead to a vitally important refinement in how Primary Directions can function.

Since they (Topocentric Primary Directions) are capable (on average) of tying the appropriate events to a period of +/- 2-1/2 weeks, it doesn't make any sense to me to use their less-refined (much older ) "cousin" and have aspects relating to much larger timeframes unnecessarily. It would be like purposefully reaching for foggy glasses, which sit right next to a perfectly clear pair.

Still, I heartily recommend that you do as I did and survey all the various Primary Direction methods that you can find. I believe that it will certainly enhance your appreciation of the Topocentric method.


Peace

James

I have ignored the issue of the so-called Topocentric system so far, and have no intention of getting drawn into another debate on it; but as the latest comments by James on the traditional method are almost as misleading as that infamous book by Noel Tyl, let me just note that although the number of 'hits' increases enormously with the use of minor aspects, outer planets and intermediate cusps, the symbolism of the hits presented to support the so-called Topocentric system often seems anything but natural to me.

The traditional use of primary directions aims to identify one or more planets active during a particular period of time, which often covers a number of symbolically related events; therefore there is no one-to-one correspondence between a single direction and a single event. This means that James is criticizing the traditional system for not doing something it never claimed to do (but which, for his own reasons, he obviously thinks it should be doing).

Some of the mathematical problems inherent in the so-called Topocentric system (the cusps of which are nearly identical to Placidus cusps anyway) are discussed here and here.

Hello Martin,

I hope that it doesn't feel or seem as though I am baiting you in this conversation. I really don't want to debate it either.

Just realize that on this, a mostly traditional forum, that the "traditional view" tends to ride the headlines while the "opposing view" is buried on page 4, right under the ad for hemorrhoid creme. (likely where some feel it rightfully belongs)

Re: "...The traditional use of primary directions aims to identify one or more planets active during a particular period of time, which often covers a number of symbolically related events"

If the period is large enough, it can contain not only those related to that particular symbolism of which you speak, but of course to many other events that fit a much different symbolism... this is how life is. One can be elected President while grieving the recent death of a Grandmother, for example. Surely it is obvious that, as we more narrowly define the timeframe, we limit out general conditions/events that could statistically be called coincidences.

As the timeframe becomes tighter in time, then it is less-possible to see coincidence as if it were relevant. In other words if "certain astrological symbolism" represents what happens in the 39th year of life, having any certainty of the connection to some event is questionable, since we will likely have some event of that "flavor" during such a large timeframe. In fact, as you have even pointed out, we'll probably have several! On the other hand, if we have for instance, the Ascendant primary directing to conjoin Venus and we say that the person will have this (as Ebertin could describe) important personal experience with important females (likely Wife or Mother) in the environment and we say that it will be within a 2 month period of December 3rd and the person in fact gets married ON December 3rd, though they didn't even choose the date, there is much less maneuvering room to say, "that was just a coincidence."

After faulty birthtimes, coincidence is the greatest problem in Astrology. (imo)

I do appreciate that Primary Directions are used differently by different people. Showing one method and contrasting it to others (especially when they both have the same name ) is not an evil thing, it's just a thing.

Re: "...therefore there is no one-to-one correspondence between a single direction and a single event..."

Pity. There are systems that do allow this, in that events in this tight timeframe will be happening, though there may very well be several, the tight timeframe removes some of the "crapshoot" element of it, in my opinion, since we're not talking about protracted periods of time where we'll find events relating to most POSSIBLE symbolism if we just look hard enough...

As an example, when I saw that (the one time in my life) my Moon could Primary Direct to conjoin Pluto on Jan 16, 2010...this indicated that I would likely have some very emotionally shocking circumstance (pure symbolism) occur within +/- 2 months of that date and since it was Pluto, there is always the possibility that it relates to death by Pluto's natural symbolism of death and decay. Upon looking further, I saw that Mercury would be squaring the 8th cusp on Feb 4, 2010; which reinforced the idea that my mind/thoughts (Mercury) could well be on issues relating to death, since this is a restatement of something that was hinted at as a possibility by the level and theme of the Moon-Pluto conjunction. The fact that the Mercury-8th aspect was a square now ties this to a +/- 1 month time, so I felt very confident that between Jan 4th and Mar 4th that someone would die and it would have a profound emotional impact on me. On February 4th, my Brother (aha, Mercury...brothers, naturally and rules my 3rd House, siblings and 12th House, mournful, undermining things) called me (again, Mercury/3rd House) to inform me of the sudden death (8th House & Pluto here) of my Step-Father. The point in relaying this is not to show some incredible predictive element (of which it really was not), it was to show the reliability of the factors using Topocentric Primary Directions. ie. Once the correct birthtime was established by the many past events of my life, then the future astrological aspects are RELIABLE.

The two main points... 1) without Topocentric Primary Directions I would not have been able to get my birthtime to the specificity necessary in order to really use Primary Directions (effectively)... and 2) the future TPD's are reliable indicators (by pure astrological symbolism and time specificity) of what is to come. Since I use Secondaries and PSSR aspects, there is a lot more that could be written here, but am focusing only on the Primary Directions, ie. the Topic.

Re: "Some of the mathematical problems inherent in the so-called Topocentric system..."

Are these presented from people who actually use and understand the system or by mathematically-justifying philosophical types who just don't BELIEVE that they can work, since they don't understand them and haven't seen the results possible? (ie. is this the same McKransky and Wackford stuff that always gets mentioned? which means nothing in the light of empirical data) The math is really not important conceptually, it is only that the math had to put those cusps at the same place that Primary Directions matched to events when empirically analyzed. The system was developed to match the data...the data (Primary Directions and massive Events Lists came FIRST.) Doesn't matter... I can show case after case after case with dozens of events EACH that show that Topocentric cusps are the hot-points for a House. Let's do that in another thread if there's interest. It's too off-topic to go into here.

This isn't arm-wrestling. The goal isn't to Primary Direct you into submission It is to show another system, strongly contrasted with an old system (of which you happen to have written a book glorifying the old method while giving short shrift to the new method, which I understand through the stated focus of the book, the traditional technique). Anyone that takes the time to actually get their right birthtime and then checks against future events in their life (or out of sample events from the rectification) will see just how well they work.

...and that's what I hope for... a fair "day in court" based on the facts and free of philosophical sniping.

Peace

James

I'm not playing, James. I've said all I have to say on the topic and remain utterly unconvinced by your examples.

Just realize that on this, a mostly traditional forum, that the "traditional view" tends to ride the headlines while the "opposing view" is buried on page 4, right under the ad for hemorrhoid creme. (likely where some feel it rightfully belongs

While it is true that the proportion of traditional astrologers using this site is much higher than most other forums, the idea that a more contemporary view is deliberately hidden is absurd. Posts are put up in chronological order on the forum in which they are posted. No one shifts them around in order to highlight one at the expense of another. There are more traditional articles posted here than modern ones, but that is the nature of the site and a reflection of the interests of most readers. If there are too many traditionalists here for your tastes, there are remedies you can take.

Hi Atlantean

If you are who I think you are then I remember you from the astro.com forum.

The fact that the Mercury-8th aspect was a square now ties this to a +/- 1 month time, so I felt very confident that between Jan 4th and Mar 4th that someone would die and it would have a profound emotional impact on me. On February 4th, my Brother (aha, Mercury...brothers, naturally and rules my 3rd House, siblings and 12th House, mournful, undermining things) called me (again, Mercury/3rd House) to inform me of the sudden death (8th House & Pluto here) of my Step-Father

Just curious why you focused on the square to the 8th, and not, say, to the 2nd? Did anything occur during this same period that related to 2nd house matters?

Also, probably a minor point, but I don't believe that Mercury naturally rules brothers, I had thought that Mars did? Obviously in your own chart it's different of course so probably not important.

I don't believe I have posted my natal chart on this forum, so if you're still interested, I could list as many events even say in the last year and offer them to you. With these events (starting a new job, being made redundant, getting another job, moving home, starting a relationship, ending same relationship etc) could you be confident in finding the time of my chart using topocentric primary directions? If I gave you a 5 hour window say, and my birth time as I know was within that window?

I could give you more details from earlier in my life but with an 'orb' of error because I cannot be confident of the exact days.

(Btw if you think it coudl be done, it's probably better we take it to a separate thread to not clutter this one)

Hello Martin,

Re: "I'm not playing, James. I've said all I have to say on the topic..."

As I said, I didn't want to debate it. If you read my reply to you, then I am satisfied.

Peace

James

Hello Tom,

Sorry....first off, let me say that I didn't mean to imply that anything underhanded was going on. I don't believe that there is...and had I thought that, I would not even be here.

What I mean is... it is basically a Traditional forum. If some crusty tome gets translated, then many will comment on it...it will stay high on the list and be seen over and over because it will constantly be replied to or bumped.

More (let's call them) non-mainstream techniques are likely to be read, but not nearly so often replied to... I understand that it is the nature of the forum, which is fine, but it does prompt me to want to be more vocal in the hopes that others can find the utility in these methods.

I am sure that you remember a previous time or two when these ideas were presented here. I don't relentlessly blather on about it...but in the absence of any discussion of it, I definitely feel motivated to bring it up occasionally. Several have adopted these techniques and I have found a couple of friends/associates that have great interest in discussing some of the finer points. (which is fine by me!)

Again, sorry, Tom, if you got the feeling that I meant someone was deep-sixing these threads. I really don't believe that at all. In fact, if anything, Deb has been quite supportive of anything that I have posted here, so please don't take my comment as a complaint....it is merely an observation.

Peace

James

Hello Paul,

Re: "If you are who I think you are then I remember you from the astro.com forum."

Yes, I am sure that I am the person that you are remembering. Be that commendation or indictment.

Re: the 8th over the 2nd...

As I mentioned, the Moon-Pluto Primary Direction (a conjunction by the way) is the one time that these two symbolizing emotional shock and possibly issues of death come together, thusly...so I already had an 8th House leaning. If I were seeing loads of Jupiter and Uranus, then I certainly would have read more of a 2nd House meaning, ie. Money, since I don't have any rich relatives to bequeath anything substantial.

Re: Your "challenge"

Well,...if you give me quite a few securely dated events, I'll certainly consider rectifying your chart in public and showing the appropriate Primary Directions, so that all can judge for themselves, based on the data presented, rather than any pre-consideration bias. (not that I would expect that from you, Paul, you've always appeared progressive in thought, so are my target demographic)

Peace

James

Atlantean wrote: Yes, I am sure that I am the person that you are remembering. Be that commendation or indictment.

LOL

Not an indictment, sorry if I worded that badly!

Well,...if you give me quite a few securely dated events, I'll certainly consider rectifying your chart in public and showing the appropriate Primary Directions, so that all can judge for themselves, based on the data presented, rather than any pre-consideration bias.

My problem is that I don't know exactly how much information you need nor how accurately you need it.
Realistically this last year I can give you the exact days and in some places the exat time that the following occurred (in the last 12 months):

Got accepted for a new job.
Started that new job with a higher salary.
Moved home.
Started a relationship.
Ended same relationship.
Went on holiday.
Got made redundant.
Found new job on a much higher salary (the higher salary is noticeable)
Started that new job.

I can probably find out within a day or two other days that I've entered into or broken up with major relationships. I broke my arm at one point as a teenager but I woudl struggle to work out the day that this occurred. I could get the day I graduated from university or something like that either but I'm not sure that's personal enough. I could get the day I first started my first job in the industry I trained for though for example.
I'm not married and I've had no kids and have had no other major accidents so can't add anything more in that department.

I appreciate these may all seem trivial, but there big deals for me. My latest job offer came with a much bigger salary than I've ever had or anticipated having at this age so if nothing else something shoudl show up for that one. Using profections I had given myself about a fortnight during which I expected a modest increase in salary or a christmas bonus. Instead I got made redundant. I was a bit surprised, but then a few days later got a new job on a much bigger salary. I'm supposing something of primary directions (topocentric or otherwise!) would also reveal that. It's a jump in career and salary that I woudl expect to be forecastable.