I understand that Martin, but surely we could find a few charts from our collective database which would have a straight trine with reception showing someone getting a job, for instance which would also have a different ascending sign depending on which zodiac you use?

I mean also the details should be different, right? Someone over-qualified for the job they are going for and their significator is exalted in one zodiac in detriment in the other or the time-frames involved differing with the nature of the signs. Things like this could be compared surely?

Yes. I don't object to comparisons, although I predict that people will draw different conclusions from them.

One chart I like to cite in this context is actually a natal one: that of Robert Zoller. He refers to it himself often enough, so I suppose we can treat it as public.

Tropically, the Moon on the Asc is ruler of the 5th, a fruitful sign, in another fruitful sign ruled by Jupiter, and with no malefic aspects. At a first glance, I would expect the native to have several children (predominantly daughters) who play a central role in his life.

Sidereally, the Moon is ruler of the 6th in a Saturn sign, and (depending on the house system used, of course) Saturn as ruler of the Asc is near the 6th house cusp afflicted by the opposition of Mars. I would expect this to be someone of a sickly constitution, whose life was characterized to a great extent by illness.

No doubt some will find this example as compelling as I do, while others will find different ways of explaining both the childlessness and the illness.

Martin Gansten wrote:No doubt some will find this example as compelling as I do, while others will find different ways of explaining both the childlessness and the illness.

Yes, and this is the single, most irritating thing about astrology. There are multiple ways of doing every thing with many of them reaching the same destinations via different routes.

I accept your reservations but I think I may just give it a shot with my own charts anyway.

Hello all,

Indeed, coming from differing premises, as different astrologies (and astrologers ) often do, there will be different paths to making sense of a native's life. I'll take a swing at it, even if looking at charts at first glance has never turned out too well for me.

As for Zoller's chart, looking at only the Moon, it is not in any of its signs nor in the sign of a sect-mate. We can say the same of Jupiter.

For his health, his Lot of Fortune falls in the 2nd sign Aries, where both its domicile and exalted lords are in the 12th sign opposed by Saturn.

For children (and IIRC he has a step-son?), the only planet in the 4th, 5th, 10th, & 11th signs is Venus, and all the signs except for Cancer are barren ones according to Valens, if memory serves. Also, two differing Lots of Children for men both fall into Taurus, another barren sign.
As for Venus, again it looks like it's in an alien sign. Both Venus & the Moon have Jupiter as their domicile lord, Jupiter has Mars, so I think the benefics and the Moon here are limited it what they can both provide and do by being ultimately reliant on poorly placed malefics.

Konrad wrote:I can post it for you if you want? Though I would need to know which zodiac to use. I have Solar Fire.

Why not use Horary as a simple, clear-cut test of whether the sidereal zodiac works as well as the tropical?

That would be very helpful, Konrad if you could post the chart. Calculate the chart with the Lahiri ayanamsa and equal houses. This will make the cusps of all the houses the same degree, though I use that cusp as the center of a house rather than the beginning. (I use the Krishnamurti ayanamsa but at this point it would only cause confusion. Almost everyone uses Lahiri now, though Ronnie Dryer uses Krishnamurti.) Fern's approximate data is below.

Fern:
October 27, 1985
12:13 p.m. EST
New Haven, CT (only a guess)
Asc. about 25 Sagittarius

Moon in the last degree of Pises (terms of Saturn)
Venus is near the zenith point in Virgo and square the ascendant.

I'm not a practicing horary astrologer, but I've often thought it would be interesting to have a tropical and sidereal horary astrlologer in the same room, and have them draw up charts for a question and compare the results.

Therese

Martin wrote:

It is my honest opinion that, overall, sidereal charts work better; but in the end, there are only seven classical planets from which to choose your significators, and not infrequently, a given configuration will prove decisive in a judgement irrespective of which zodiac is used. Not always, of course -- just often enough to cast doubt on the 'simple, clear-cut' idea

Exactly my experience as well. And we have the difficulty caused by the overlap of zodiacs due to the current locaton of the precessed degree...the final degrees of the tropical signs and the early degrees of sidereal signs. This area will have the same sign name in both zodiacs. Well, then there are always the arguments over the ayanamsa, the very best reason to stay with the tropical zodiac

Hello Therese,

Here is the chart for Fern displayed in the sidereal (Lahiri) zodiac with equal house system as you requested:
I hope you dont mind but for comparative purposes I have also displayed the chart in the tropical zodiac using placidus house system:
Mark

Oh, thank you! It's great to have the comparison of zodiacs and houses! We're close with the Moon, too. In the book the Moon has 7 minutes. Close enough.

Martin Gansten wrote:

Mark mentioned this in relation to ingress charts, but it applies equally to horary and natal.

No that wasn't me. Understandable confusion with my mundane interests though.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Stellarium, I believe that what is important are the equinoxes and solstices. I think western sidereal astrologers are barking up the wrong tree with their cardinal ingress charts. However, a chart that seems to be working for major quakes is the solar ingress chart for signs of the sidereal zodiac, but only with the Krishnamurti ayanamsa. (That is, the entrance of the Sun into the signs.)The Fagan value ingress gives a chart close to that, but the Moon is off by some degrees. Sigh....this is one of those research projects that lies unpublished in my files. I could use an office manager and a secretary.

Hello Therese,

I must admit to knowing next to nothing on sidereal approaches to mundane astrology. Its something I have been meaning to research. Especially regarding Indian astrology. I feel this thread has more of a natal focus but if you ever get the time please do post your ideas on the mundane forum. Frankly, accurate mundane prediction (as opposed to retrospective analysis) is a fairly rare beast and I am open to any ideas. As I recall B.V Raman successfully predicted WWII while most of the English astrologers failed to do so. While some tropical astrologers did this too it has intrigued me to see how this was done.

Mark

The problem in reading a sidereal chart for those who aren't used to it is the same problem I had for a long time. Libra here in Fern's chart isn't the nice friendly tropical Libra. It's the energy we see in tropical Scorpio. So it's best to try to make the signs neutral and think of them purely in terms of their ruling and exalted planets, and maybe partly their trigons.

In Definitions and Foundations Robert Schmidt said that an entire trigon shared a similar energy, and the ruling planets of the other two signs were sometimes considered as co-rulers. Then there are the triplicity lords as well. Seems to me that we have to be very mentally flexible to be astrologers!

Therese Hamilton wrote: You know, for personality and behavior, we don't have to use labels and descriptive systems if we don't want to. We can simply describe Fern's behavior: She's a sad little girl who feels isolated form her peers. She sees life as a series of disappointments and cries a lot. Her basic personality is Saturnian, is it not? In addition, tears are wet. So in the sidereal zodiac we have:
Saturn
Ascendant in the terms of Saturn
Moon in terms of Saturn
Ascendant lord Jupiter in fall in Saturn-ruled Capricorn
Sun, Moon's south node and MC are in the sign of the Sun's fall, Libra. (That is, sidereal Libra has a Saturnian tone.)
Saturn itself is in a sign inimical to itself, Mars-ruled Scorpio.
Pluto is with the Sun, but traditional astrologers don't use Pluto. However, psychologically Pluto can actually be very lonely and isolated, just like the actual body of Pluto itself on the fringes of the solar system. (This is from Garth Allen in the western sidereal system.)
Venus-Tears

Venus is traditionally accepted as wet. (Arabic cold and moist) Here it's in its fall in Virgo and squaring the ascendant. It's dispositor Mercury is in Scorpio with an unhappy Saturn.

What more do we need to say if we're looking for a personality immersed in sadness?

The title of this thread is "Traditional TECHNIQUES in the Sidereal." I'm not one for philosophical arguments or endless discussion. I don't have the time or mental energy for either. Even writing a short post is tiring. I have a great deal more going on in life, and writing takes intense concentration. I'm interested in practical demonstrations of how planets operate in the sidereal zodiac in light of their traditional placements in signs (domicile, exaltation, fall, triplicity, etc.) Fern's chart is a prime example of the negative effects of planets in signs inimical to themselves.
.

It is very difficult for astrologers to escape psychological terminology and theory. ''Personality '? and ??Behaviour?? , what exactly are we talking about here? Innate/Learnt, Coherent/In- coherent, Conscious/Unconscious, Verbal/Non-verbal, Active /Re-active, Overt/Covert etc. Some astrologers use more laymen?s or popular language such as sadness. A ?sad ?person may cry a lot but a depressed person little, even though this mood may resemble or feel like sadness. When one is depressed the mental state is more apathetic, so crying is not an inevitable or even predictable behavioural outcome. If we go back to the arresting of empathy, the baby may initially cry a lot seeking care and food but after a while will stop and eventually give up, ending up in a state of 'learned helplessness' or depression.

You seem to be suggesting here the ?traditional? astrologer may expect those awarded a melancholic temperament to cry more or feel sadder than the phlegmatic? Perhaps it?s the opposite. I would expect a dourness or gloominess in the melancholic (earth signs) and more sadness with the phlegmatic (water signs).

Greenbaum seeks to separate temperament from personality by suggesting temperament is more ??inherent?.

??Our inborn temperament is also what we fall back on when faced with a new situation: are we the take-charge, choleric type who rushes in to meet every new experience with gusto? Or the quiet melancholic, who hangs back and analyzes and would rather die than be the life of the party? Are we sanguine, looking to make new friends and social contacts, or phlegmatic and just want to be left alone.??- Greenbaum.

If we replace temperament, or merge it with the personality would this be inaccurate? The dictionary suggests temperament is part of the personality which as the totality of a person incorporates the characteristic manners of thinking, etc ?.....

tem?per?a?ment
The manner of thinking, behaving, or reacting characteristic of a specific person.

Per?son?al?i?ty
The totality of qualities and traits, as of character or behaviour, that is peculiar to a specific person.

Curiously, and contrary to the more academic definitions, the common usage of temperament today , (even though it tends to be employed more often with animals than humans), suggests a more innate quality to it than personality . What particularly interests me about these traditional temperament, points for this and that, systems is the absence of the Sun. This suggests it's rationale may have been seeking to identify something more unconscious and instinctive. Which is how Psychological Astrologers think about the Moon.


Are you interpreting Saturn?s exaltation in Libra in a way which suggests it has a malefic influence there? I would see the logic of its exaltation there as something like interpersonal engagements (Libra) require rules (Saturn). A positive more than a negative. I assumed exaltation was always a positive in the ?tradition?. Perhaps wrongly?

Further, Tropical Pluto is not to my knowledge seen as isolated or lonely, partly because it is seen as a collective planet (often) and these are more personal/impersonal states. Also partly because I thought these meanings are usually linked to Saturn as it was initially the furthest away of the visible planets?

The introductory notes on the Qualities of this thread were for only one purpose: To clear up the misconception that the sidereal signs are similar to the tropical signs of the same name. That is, sidereal Aries is NOT like Tropical Aries. It's like the following Tropical sign, Taurus, and (as I've used them) the philosophical meanings of Aristotle's qualities have been used to partly describe the triplicities.

The Western Sidereal astrologers I have bumped into, Bowser a notable example, use similar meanings to the Tropicalists. Debates arise along the lines of is Barack Obama kind, needy, conservative. responsible, and practical or warm, generous, detached, liberal and curious. Or using a Temperament system is he Melancholic or Sanguine.

Using your schema, as I understand it, in time Sidereal Capricorn resembles Tropical Pisces and eventually all the constellations will. Wouldn?t it be more coherent for a Sidereal astrologer not to employ the seasonal associations which sign meanings appear to contain and use meanings which can be linked more directly to the constellations?

Sidereally this trigon would be one hundred percent masculine in rulership and energy. (Remembering that masculine here is a different concept than the popular tropical understanding of the word, and refers in part to solar qualities. [Tropical earth: direct, constant, self-motivating, relies on own perceptions, able to use will power to manifest events]

I'm puzzled by this as well. Tropical Fire Signs are seen as direct, etc. The only disposition here linked to Earth signs is, or could be, 'constant' but you appear to link these other 4 manifestations/behaviours to Tropical Earth not Fire.

"Nixx" wrote:

It is very difficult for astrologers to escape psychological terminology and theory. ''Personality '? and ??Behaviour?? , what exactly are we talking about here?

So as to avoid much discussion on personality, behavior, temperament, etc. I have simply posted Fern's behavior as Greenbarm describes her. It seems to me that astrologically what has been described is a mixture of Saturn and Venus.

You seem to be suggesting here the ?traditional? astrologer may expect those awarded a melancholic temperament to cry more or feel sadder than the phlegmatic?

No, I am only quoting Greenbaum. I'm really not suggesting anything.

tem?per?a?ment
The manner of thinking, behaving, or reacting characteristic of a specific person.

Per?son?al?i?ty
The totality of qualities and traits, as of character or behaviour, that is peculiar to a specific person

.

These seem to be good definitions.

Are you interpreting Saturn?s exaltation in Libra in a way which suggests it has a malefic influence there?

No, Saturn is in its own triplicity when it's in Libra. But Libra itself carries a Saturnian tone due to Saturn's influence on the trigon. If you think about this trigon in the tropical (that is, Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces), we don't usually see the joy of life in those three signs. This is explained sidereally by Saturn's influence on those signs (Gemini, Libra, Aquarius).

In Fern's chart we have the Sun in its fall in Libra. In one of the Sanguine charts Saturn sits right at the top of the chart in sidereal Libra, its exaltation. This illustrates the difference between a planet in its fall and a planet in exaltation. (The dispositors must be considered as well.)

Further, Tropical Pluto is not to my knowledge seen as isolated or lonely, partly because it is seen as a collective planet (often) and these are more personal/impersonal states.

This could be an error. Have any controlled studies been done with Pluto? Garth Allen (Donald Bradley) found Pluto to be a loner, not connected to an idea of the "collective." Pluto is with the Sun in Fern's chart. She's anything but a part of a collective.

The Western Sidereal astrologers I have bumped into, Bowser a notable example, use similar meanings to the Tropicalists.

And to me that is not logical because any one area or degree of the ecliptic must have he same meaning or energy. Western sidereal astrologers hardly consider the signs at all. Do I think they understand the signs? Probably not.

Using your schema, as I understand it, in time Sidereal Capricorn resembles Tropical Pisces

No, sidereal Capricorn is like tropical Aquarius is today. And it will always be like tropical Aquarius is today because in reality tropical Aquarius is an overlay to the fixed sign of sidereal Capricorn. The traits will always be there in Capricorn, but with precession tropical Aquarius will take on new traits. (This is my particular view.)

And yes, that is a real brain twister!

Wouldn?t it be more coherent for a Sidereal astrologer not to employ the seasonal associations which sign meanings appear to contain and use meanings which can be linked more directly to the constellations?

To my knowledge sidereal astrology doesn't employ seasonal symbolism. That's why we're not fans of Ptolemy. Sign traits are linked to ruling and exalted planets, and also to sections of the constellations. The symbolism of the individual lunar mansions relates to stars and constellations. The triplicities were originally linked to the four winds and direction in Mesopotamia rather than to qualities or elements.

Tropical Fire Signs are seen as direct, etc. The only disposition here linked to Earth signs is, or could be, 'constant' but you appear to link these other 4 manifestations/behaviours to Tropical Earth not Fire.

The traits I gave to the tropical triplicites were taken from standard tropical texts. I used Rob Hand's Horoscope Symbols and other texts. Yes, I should have these traits completely notated, which I don't. But they all came from the standard texts. Some day I will probably have to go back and make a list of which traits came from which texts.

I apologize for posting so many messages this evening, but during the day there is too much server activity, and it's rather useless to try to link to the forum from California.