If you had read the rest of the thread, Paul, you would see that its creation was not to debate which zodiac is "right".

That was stated as an intention, but it has not been what has happened. Even those who proposed that, have made various comments that inevitably generate some kind of sidereal v tropical debate.

Without trying to dismantle specific comments at this stage, I am asking everyone to remember that threads like this stop being helpful when they become divisive. I think it's fine to include some off-topic meanderings because there is often a lot of interesting views presented in the process, but it's important to address analysis and fair-criticism (if wished) to the points being made, not the poster of the view. The thread is now 12 pages long and I have rarely seen a topic with enough interest to generate 12 pages that hasn't also generated a lot of frustration in the end pages (long threads like this nearly always end by being locked).

So maybe with the suggestion that a new chart is brought up for analysis, we can recognise that we are getting towards the point where it would be useful to bring this thread to an end and start up a new thread with a more specific theme. Or several, with specific themes that continue some of the many interesting points brought up here but not fully explored for fear of taking the thread 'off-track'. The title of this thread is far too broad to keep a thread like this in any way focused. It could become a forum section in itself!

I agree, off-topic meanderings are fine but when they amount to "I'm right, you're wrong...this is why my way's best!", I don't see the benefit. I would have thought it possible to have a discussion about the Sidereal without bringing in the Tropical at every opportunity since it was meant to be a thread of exploration not promotion.

I just thought bringing in another chart would help get it back on track but if you think that merits the thread being closed then I take it back.

I'm not about to close the thread Konrad, just giving a 'heads-up' about the same point you are making, and the fact that if this one is to continue it mustn't slip from being one of respectful exchange of knowledge and opinion. When thread topics are broad they develop lots of interesting off-shoots - some of those off-shoots are best developed in new threads. For example, I'm overlooking some comments that I would have a lot more to say about under different circumstances, because I know it would be too much of a diversion to go into those points significantly here. (Actually, I don't have the time anyway, so that's a bit of a convenient excuse for me).

Chart explorations are always interesting. It can of course carry on here. However a new thread allows new posters to join in the conversation without feeling that they have to read 13 pages of previous discussion to catch up with where every else is at. So I do think a new thread for a new sidereal chart evaluation is a good idea but people can carry on here without limitation knowing that I am not going to close this thread unless it degenerates. My warning is that we've reached a discussion length where threads tend to generate, so let's all be aware of that and make sure it doesn't happen here.

Right-o. Got ya.

Deb wrote:we can recognise that we are getting towards the point where it would be useful to bring this thread to an end and start up a new thread with a more specific theme. Or several, with specific themes that continue some of the many interesting points brought up here but not fully explored for fear of taking the thread 'off-track'. The title of this thread is far too broad to keep a thread like this in any way focused. It could become a forum section in itself!

Okay

To examine the issue that I am disagreeing with, namely that Therese' assertion that the tropical sign meanings have been changed to match the sidereal ones, I've set up a new thread so as to not further distract from this one.

It can be found here:

Tropical Signs shifting to match Sidereal Signs
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 9306#69306

Because the issue has been raised several times here I think it's better to examine it separately.

Hello Konrad,

Re: "I agree, off-topic meanderings are fine but when they amount to "I'm right, you're wrong...this is why my way's best!", I don't see the benefit. I would have thought it possible to have a discussion about the Sidereal without bringing in the Tropical at every opportunity since it was meant to be a thread of exploration not promotion."

In an ivory tower way I can see that point, but the "I'm right, you're wrong" dynamic has actually been a part of this discussion since pretty much the beginning. (Regardless of who would ultimately participate in the conversation, I'd say it actually was destined to be part of this discussion while the discussion was still a formulating idea in the mind of the original poster.)

Re: "...my way's best..."

Not all things in life are as subjective as many would have us believe. There is truth (the individualized version) and there is Truth (the collective version). In the second version, opinion is irrelevant! It either IS or it IS NOT.

That the sidereal zodiac is usable (by its proponents) is not arguable. One need look no further than Cyril Fagan. HOWEVER, the idea that the tropical zodiac is really a mutating sidereal zodiac IS arguable. The idea that the sidereal signs have some superiority over the tropical is also arguable.

I think that Deb is very perceptive in this. Continuing on its current course, this conversation will likely degenerate (further) into a "my tropical is better than your sidereal" (and vice versa) pissing contest and that is too bad. It does point to the idea that there should be a reformulation of approach in how this whole discussion is carried out.

Still, I have plenty of popcorn... I will be amused no matter which way it goes.


Peace

James

The you would lose James, because since the beginning of this thread I have decided to use Sidereal for the time being to see where it takes me which is why I'm so keen to see others delineate charts using the Sidereal and why I'm getting a little p'd off with having to read why it doesn't work or why Tropical is better whenever someone does post some delineations.

Anyway, whatever, I will leave it at that until the moment comes where we can focus on chart delineation again.

Hello Konrad,

Fair enough.

Might I ask *IF* you think that, through delineation, we can actually get somewhere in this discussion???

My point being... if chart A has some quality, then of course a sidereal astrologer can find some astrological positioning that they believe leads to that quality. (similarly so for the tropical)

(to me) It still seems that through rulership networks is the one way to identify if sidereal (truly) works. From Therese's assertion, it will actually work BETTER in the sidereal, since she is indirectly stating that it is the TRUE zodiac.

Since this thread is about applying traditional techniques (also) in the sidereal, then there is a threat here. That threat being, using the SAME techniques with two different zodiacs and them still working is an indictment against astrology in general. (or at least it is to someone that has a strong mathematical/logical understanding)

I am assuming that when Therese has said that Tropical Cancer = Sidereal Gemini that she's implying that the Moon rules sidereal Gemini. If this is not the case, then her argument (imo) is obviously flawed from the beginning. How can a sign (sidereal Gemini) that is very much like (tropical) Cancer in most respects NOT be ruled by the Moon??????????

That is completely illogical.

I really want to hear the rationalization of this point!

Peace

James

If by "getting somewhere" you mean reaching a consensus, then no, I don't think so but for some of us, it is not about getting everyone to agree on the same thing, I just want to explore a concept for the simple joy of exploring it.

The main problem for people around this discussion seems to be the pre-programmed presumtpion that there is only one way to do it. If Nixon has a fall in his career and we can see it in both zodiacs using techniques recognised by both Tropical and Sidereal astrologers, where is the problem? I don't see it as any indictment against anything and just a testimony to how vast and complex our reality is. If you use both techniques and both come to a similar answer but your logic says that can't be true, I would throw away the logic since it has proven itself to be nothing but a limiter of the understanding one could have gleaned from such a situation.

I can't speak for Therese but my understanding of it is not that she is claiming the Moon rules Gemini, but the qualities of each sign we have become accustomed to in the modern positions of the Tropical zodiac are actually qualities belonging to the Sidereal sign which lies "behind" the 30 degree portion that makes up each tropical sign.

This actually doesn't change much though in regards to rulership since if you had the Asc at mid-cancer Tropically, you will have Gemini siderally and the Moon will not figure there at all, Mercury will. So in one system you look to the Moon, the other Mercury.

I think the point is what you would term "Leo-like" qualities, she would say are actually Cancer and Moon related but herein lies the problem. When you attach personality traits to signs, then it loses any accuracy you could have had when testing it (especially when considering that the subject will often have a very different view of their persona than someone else would, only a complete egotist would presume to know how they are received by others, in my opinion) which is why I have been testing the Sidereal zodiac on injuries, ailments, diseases and deaths since the body-parts and manner of death are very much different in Leo as they are in Cancer, for example. Or when using Valens 8th from Fortune to show death, you will often have different rulers of both the lot of Fortune and the 8th sign from it when using different zodiacs.

Let's use Paul's new thread to look specifically at this 'is tropical Cancer like sidereal Gemini?" issue. It doesn't make sense to expand on that point here when there is a request for it to be clarified elsewhere:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 9306#69306

Paul wrote:

Therese is suggesting that the tropical astrologers have routinely altered the meaning of their signs in accordance with precession.

That was Sari's suggestion, Paul. All we can deduce from Valens' description of the signs is that he linked some traits to the ruling planets. I believe today it's best to study modern charts with detailed biographies if we want to investigate sign traits.

Konrad wrote:

I can't speak for Therese but my understanding of it is not that she is claiming the Moon rules Gemini, but the qualities of each sign we have become accustomed to in the modern positions of the Tropical zodiac are actually qualities belonging to the Sidereal sign which lies "behind" the 30 degree portion that makes up each tropical sign.

This actually doesn't change much though in regards to rulership since if you had the Asc at mid-cancer Tropically, you will have Gemini siderally and the Moon will not figure there at all, Mercury will. So in one system you look to the Moon, the other Mercury.

I think the point is what you would term "Leo-like" qualities, she would say are actually Cancer and Moon related...

Thank you, Konrad. You have it exactly right. It's a very simple premise.

but herein lies the problem. When you attach personality traits to signs, then it loses any accuracy you could have had when testing it (especially when considering that the subject will often have a very different view of their persona than someone else would, only a complete egotist would presume to know how they are received by others, in my opinion)

Yes, this is true. We can't use personality if we want to define zodiac signs.

which is why I have been testing the Sidereal zodiac on injuries, ailments, diseases and deaths since the body-parts and manner of death are very much different in Leo as they are in Cancer, for example. Or when using Valens 8th from Fortune to show death, you will often have different rulers of both the lot of Fortune and the 8th sign from it when using different zodiacs.

Amen. We have to study observable facts rather than personality.